to think Lynsey Sharp should keep her sour grapes to herself?

[WrinklyBathToes]

I can't help but feel for Caster Semenya, poor lass has been subjected to all sorts of medical interventions and whispers. It's not actually her fault, it's a natural blip, why should she be subjected to all this bitching from the losers?

I'm quite happy with my neanderthal status. Sorry, derxa... I wasn't aiing that at you, but, if you are good, I'll let you keep the badge for a while

And as for the is she/isn't she female.. that entirely depends on how you see the the issue... intersex is a continuum not a binary conditions. 'Hermaphrodites' (to use the old fashioned term, to avoid using the same term more than once) are neither one nor the other, may have more characteristics of one and more chromosomes of the other... or both!

That is precisely the point that IAAF are trying to clarify, using testosterone levels as one sporting factor! Society may choose to have other definitions... but using "She is ugly, big, deep voiced, etc" as the criteria is unacceptable!

Anyone who want to say for certain what sex/gender/biological entity any intersex individual is has far more knowledge than any of the doctors, experts, decision makers in the real world. - sporting or otherwise!

At the moment she is legally and socially female. Other individuals, who may well be male looking, more female biologically, are legally and socially male. Some may not even know they have a medical issue. Unless you really want to call all intersex individuals that you can identify by sight IT (a very dangerous proposition) all we can do is accept them for who they say they are, have been rasied as, medically accepted as... and in this case, accepted as by a sporting federation!

What i don't understand is how any of the 'winners' can even enjoy their medals. It's not like anyone thinks they deserve them, surely that ruins it anyway?

SpecialAgent - from what I can see about 50% of people either think they deserve them or don't know enough to say or care. They have huge amounts of support, huge amounts of criticism and huge amounts of confused fence sitting.

A lot of the flaming of Sharp on Twitter is focused around her finishing 6th rendering Semenya's sex irrelevant. That suggests that most people are not aware of the speculation surrounding Niyonsaba and Wambui

Hmm good point. It'd be interesting to be a fly onthe wall in Rio, I imagine the athletes are a gossipy bunch!

Seriously. I feel sorry for the women who should have been on that podium.

Very informative article here from people who presumably know what they're talking about:

www.runnersworld.com/olympics/why-the-womens-800-will-be-the-most-controversial-race-at-the-olympics

But if, like Semenya and Chand and others, you have always been female. never known you were different I would imagine that they do feel they have won fairly, deserve their medals - I am loathe to include Niyonsaba and Wambui only because I am not as aware of their backgrounds, there is less 'information' on them - though they are both reported as having the same condition.

Can I also throw back into the mix that there is no equivalent rule disqualifying men with naturally high levels of testosterone from competition. Despite the fact that testosterone is natural and essential to both male and female bodies, men can be as endogenously testosterone loaded as they choose (that is not to dope, but to train levels up or to be born that way)

So, according to many, you can be female, male pretending for all you are worth that you are female, male or superman - but not superwoman!! No, sir, that's not natural, it is ugly, big, butch, scary....

In the Chand case the IAAF did not produce enough scientific evidence to show that endogenous testosterone (produced by a woman’s own body) has the same performance benefit as exogenous/drug based testosterone. No one doubts that exogenous testosterone has a significant effect on performance or that it should be universally banned.

That's it... the whole issue... EXCEPT....

Why is it that we all know about these women yet sport, media etc have been very successful in keeping the identities of transgender athletes a secret?

manic Great link! Runners world have run a few articles on the issue over the years. They cover most angles and are often very thought provoking!

Ourblanche then why bother with sex segregation at all?

That is a very startling image shins

I'm just reading in the Guardian that, before the ruling that threw everything back into confusion, several athletes with intersex disorders gas surgery to correct the anomalous testosterone production levels;

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/21/caster-semenya-wins-gold-but-faces-scrutiny

So there are at least two established treatment protocols.

Had surgery, not gas.

Ourblanche then why bother with sex segregation at all? No idea!

Fashion? Habit? Why ask? It seems to me to be an odd question! Why segregate by sex at all? Or in just in sport?

This situation will only be temprary, until there is more research and more informed decisions are reached. Different decisions to those for transgender athletes, I hope!

Just5 yes, that was the case. If, as an intersex athlete, you wanted to compete as a woman you had to have surgery... not sure those rules would ever have been applied to transgender athletes - mainly because we can't talk about them, not having any real information about real , named athletes!

Which is why I hope there will be separate rulings about intersex and transgender athletes. They may amount to the same rulings, but I hope they have the common sense to acknowledge that intersex and transgender are not the same thing... at al!

I agree great article, and the legal case gets to the crux of it. tricky though, as all cases of partial AIS won't be the same and will have different levels of receptor sensitivity. I'm not sure how how that can be quantified - ie how much a person with AIS can be said to be able to make use of their high serum testosterone. Easy for those who have complete AIS and thus no receptors but hard to determine for those who can respond to their own androgens, even partially.

I don't see it as political correctness, more that it highlights how little is known about the hormone profiles produced by people who are intersex.

For me, particularly as someone with endocrine conditions myself, the test should be what the optimal medical treatment for hyperandrogenism in female non-athletes is.

Because surely opting not to treat a medical condition is disordered behaviour? Similar to diabetics who skip insulin injections to lose weight.

And when treatment for a medical condition is eschewed by an athlete for the purpose of gaining competitive advantage, then that's equivalent to doping in a healthy athlete.

Because, I agree, it's NOT an identity issue, it's medical, which is why it must be considered separately to transgender cases/policy.

In Complete AIS though you lack androgen receptors, so there's no need to bring serum levels of testosterone down, it's not possible to respond to testosterone. Which is why they're born externally female and with intraabdominal testes.

For those with partial AIS there's some receptor response but, bearing in mind they're XY a high testosterone is not really something that needs to be treated. It won't cause reproductive issues as there's no uterus or ovaries.

So Caster's musculature, pronounced jaw, lack of breasts etc do suggest testosterone activity that rule that possibility out then (?)

The complete AIS, I mean.

Are you hazarding a guess that she has partial AIS?

Because most people with PAIS are raised as boys, aren't they?

I think she's got PAIS. There's a big variability in presentations with partial AIS, ranging from baby boys who look "normal" but don't virilise typically at puberty and babies that are XY and look female. And about 5-6 grades in between.

YANBU. It's not like Sharpe would have won anyways.
Sore, entitled loser

So it's not correct that most babies with PAIS are raised as boys?

And you can kind of see where the current challenge comes from. The previous rules were testosterone below a certain level
except for athletes with CAIS who have high testosterone but no receptors to androgens.

So then an athlete with partial AIS wants it proven that her high testosterone, produced in her own body, confers an advantage especially, presumably, given her variable receptor response. And the proof isn't immediately forthcoming so she's allowed to compete, as are those with the same profile.

I don't personally think it's fair because it seems obvious that there's an advantage.

I blame whoever set the testosterone limit at the low end of the male range. Faced with the question, "How do we define a woman?" they have answered "A woman is defined as Not A Man". The usual story: man as default, woman as Other. In the non binary world of gender, they have decided to put men in the men's races and lumped everyone else in together under the heading, "Women".
FWIW I think anyone who has gone through puberty under the influence of a pair of testicles should be excluded from women's sport. There is a reason why mares in National Hunt races automatically receive a 7lb weight allowance from every gelding in the field...and still only win the big races once in a blue moon.
I feel sorry for everyone involved in the whole debacle, but mostly for the athletes who don't have testicles trying to compete against those who do. If the rules stay as they are then I predict that eventually there will be three pairs of testicles on every podium in track + field, judo etc. Nicola Adams will get battered in her first bout. Intersex people may be rare but it would make sense for every country to identify them and intensively coach them. If the rules stay as they are, and my daughter expresses a wish to become an elite sportswoman, I will steer her towards sports where having a male phenotype confers little or no advantage. Unless she turns out to be cryptorchid.