AIBU to want to push this intern out of the window

[Rosamund1]

I've got nice shoes older than he is but that's not why I am annoyed.

He is the son of one of the owners friends and he will finish uni next year. This is a small firm so excellent opportunity to get some experience.

I am looking after him and to get him started I asked him to write a couple of pages of the impact a change of legislation may have on our clients. I gave him a full day to produce something. I told him that I acknowledge that at uni you may have days or weeks to write and research, but on the ground clients want answers quickly so it was an excercise in speed as well as content. At the end of the day he said he's not ready. And the next day. FFS.

Then I asked him for a list of for example dentists in a five mile radius because we are going to write to them. A whole day later he produces a handwritten list. My local dentist is not on the list. I told him that the job is not glamorous, there is a lot of admin.

Next, we are having a meeting with a big client. I said he could sit in on the presentation. As preparation please read the file and prepare a one page summary of the background, clients needs & where we are to date. He didn't do it. He just attended the meeting, no prep. Obviously he would not be presenting but come on.

He is scruffy and he mumbles instead of talking. He gives the impression he does not want to be here - forced by parents perhaps. I have looked after other interns before but none like this.

Sometimes I walk past his screen and he has some random internet page open. I ask if he has anything to do and he says no. I told him at the beginning that we can't babysit him, if he is at a loose end he can ask anyone in the team for something.

I'm not going to point out his general lack of interest and uselessness to the boss, who is his mum's friend. I am not going to stick my neck out and say 'You need to stand up straight, tuck your shirt in and look lively.' I will just memorise his name and try and avoid him in a professional context. Or just push him out the window.

With regards to employment law, they are very careful not to create a contractual obligation and it is legal not to pay him.

Several people have provided the govt link that shows it's not

Urgh.
Several years back I was ordered to give the son of a bigwig a lift into his internship every day. No choice in the matter. He was always late. Always late - once I had to march into his dogs and pull him out of bed! I told him, every day, you're making me late.
He was an utter arse as well. Spent the entire ride talking about what 'birds' he'd shagged and appraising the backsides of women in the office. It made zero difference that I told him he was out of order. He never gave the petrol money that was promised.

So... I had a Yaris at the time. He was a tall lad. Every day I put the air con on as cold as I could and every two or three days I clicked the seat forward one and wedged something behind it so he couldn't put it back. Two weeks later he was shivering and folded in half and still late and still yammering on about how fucking rich he was.

In the end I point blank refused to take him any more. I never got my petrol money. Everyone in the office loathed him

He's probably CEO of something now...

We used to employ Bright Young Things for a year or two where I used to work (international organisation) - they were paid a decent salary, it looked good on their CV. The ones that stick in my mind:

The girl from who emailed me saying "I don't appear to have been invited to interview. Hello? Surely some mistake? Which bit of Double First from Cambridge did you not understand?"

The girl we took on, who pranced into the head honcho's office on her second day, saying she couldn't possibly work for Mrs Schadenfreude, because Mrs S hadn't been to university, whereas she had not only a First from a RG uni, but also a Masters from the Sorbonne. She didn't feel that Mrs S could teach her anything. Head honcho looked at her and said "Maybe she could teach you some manners and a little humility?"

The young man in his thirties, who had never had a proper job, but had had an amazing selection of internships around the world. How did you get your internship with the EU in X country? "Yah, Daddy knew the Ambassador, so he put in a good word for me." And your internships at the UK, French and US Embassies in A, B and C countries? "Yah, same again, Daddy knew the Ambassadors." He had essentially lived with Mummy and Daddy going round the world, getting one internship after another due to "Daddy knowing the Ambassador." Because, Daddy was an Ambassador and could pull strings. Unfortunately for him, not this one... Although Daddy had suggested he apply for the job.

The best assistant I had, had worked as a care assistant in an old people's home while she was at school and uni - she had a fantastic work ethic and would muck in and help out anyone.

Hi Floisme

I know I may have seemed harsh... but to be fair I have had brilliant interns in the past who have wholly contributed to projects and research and really played a constructive role, however the last one was a total arse ( I'm not in the UK and these are well paid obligatory internships that count as the last year of a masters ).

He questioned everything I asked ( and not in a constructive way) even when provided with explanations of why, how and when things needed to be done, and what the specific goal of each task was. He actually didn't manage to do anything constructive and took it upon himself to contact a client directly with his brilliant ideas, lucky the client smelt a fish and emailed directly, so no harm done thank god.

To cap it all one morning he actually clicked his fingers above his head at the team assistant because he wanted coffee.

Our assistant/ resident angel /femme extraordinaire had spent a whole evening the previous week with me unpicking the crap he had pulled on a client file.

However

The next time I asked him to join me in the fishbowl ( I'm not sure this is what a glass cube meeting room in the middle of an openspace is called in english...) he came without a pen or paper or his computer and didn't take notes .... until the above mentioned -team assistant- angel knocked on the door and plonked a pad of paper and a pen down in front of him and said " I think you forget this".

And I admit, after that I got him to handwrite the adresses for my christmas cards.... in May.

Gasp yes W1A did spring to mind!

Ok pimmsy I'll put up my hands - he sounds a nightmare

I guess this thread has struck a nerve with me. Maybe it's because I have a son this age or maybe it's because I'm getting close to the end of my own working life and it's making me more reflective. But I do think establishing yourself in a career is so much harder now than it was for me and yet there also seems to be a lot of hostility towards young people which I really don't like.

Absolutely no hostility towards young people here - only twats :)
The next year in a different job I got an intern/summer student who was fabulous. I pulled every string I could to get her a job with the company and we are still friends to this day. Hard working, aware she was learning, great work ethic, sound judgement and good with clients. She was fab - better at the job after a few weeks than some full time employees.
She got the full time job and her career took off. Really hope your son gets something

Utterly gobsmacked by your intern tales, MrsS & pimmsy. If there's much of this around, I'm inclined to sympathise with the increased hostility towards young people!!

Presumably there isn't that much - or they wouldn't have stuck in your mind? Anyway, Flo, it's unlikely you've raised quite such a pompous little twerp so he'll be a positive relief to his future 'minder' ...

Absolutely no hostility towards young people here - only arseholes! (I'm still in touch with three of the young people who worked for me - one has invited me to his 30th birthday party next month , one has a fabulous job working for the UN and earns a lot more than me, and the third is living in California and doing something creative.)

Hmm. I disapprove of unpaid internships - partly because only the children of the rich can afford to do them. However, that is a separate issue.

Yes, he sounds awful. But not to tell him where he is falling short is to do him (and you) a disservice. I like the previous poster's idea of summarising where he can improve etc.

When I was supervising someone and had to change something they did, I wrote a bullet point list of what I changed and sat down with them to go through it.

Yes I love an intern with an attitude: addicted to phone, moany, complains they cannot do anything because they have a DEGREE from a university, no less.
Good ones are great. Bad ones are just depressing.
I don't mind the arrogance of youth as long as they have a good work ethic.

Agree with a lot of this. My colleagues sons have both done fabulous international internships because of daddy's connections. My dd has struggled to get anything...
Best intern I had was a lad with Aspergers. Interview was terrible until I realised what the issue was. We took him on anyway and he was great. As long as he had very clear and detailed instructions and was left alone to get on with it, he was fine.
Way better than the entitled top graduates who didn't have a clue and thought the world owed them a living...

It is different in medicine because the training is structured and trainers are trained in how to train. This intern thread really shows up how little training people have in supporting interns. I fail to see how producing a list of dentists in a five mile radius is useful training for anyone. Not that it is a difficult task . But if the objective was to ask the intern to do an Internet research exercise and produce a spreadsheet at the end then the intern should have been told what the objectives were beforehand. Also on the Olympic example because of the South American time difference people working in the day don't get to see that much unless they are up half the night watching tv. I think OP should set some achievable goals with the intern eg 1. Attain knowledge of organisations structure 2. Develop email skills 3. Develop team working and interpersonal skills 4. Develop client prep skills
and agree what tasks will show evidence of these and who can support the intern in those tasks.
This generation have been through an overly structured sixth form and university system and are lost on their own as well as having unrealistic expectations as to the proportion of dull admin to exciting stuff a starter is expected to do. Junior docs, for example, get upset when expected to put patients notes in order, till they realise that actually doing it helps the diagnostic process

Think, in a year or so you might get the opportunity to vent via a reference for a proper post uni job.

I have no idea whether it would be reasonable to push him out of the window, but I did enjoy reading your OP, Rosamund.

Very entertaining!

Just incase anyone who has the power to offer internships is on here - please please PLEASE sign up to the Social Mobilty Foundation's one +1 scheme. Basically you agree to take on one student without connections & networks for every placement you give to a client/comtact's child. The SMF open doors for children with real talent but little chance of getting into the big companies. I still think there's a huge chunk missing (i.e. Children like me who were comfortable working class & worked bloody hard) but I'm really keen to publicise the SMF's efforts. Some children I work with have had life changing opportunities as a result. www.socialmobility.org.uk/oneplus1/

Re: the comment about medical training - I can't believe how ridiculous some young people are.

I left uni due to mental health reasons and, after I got out of hospital, spent three years right at the bottom of the ladder in GP surgeries. I was a receptionist, HCA and general assistant in a deprived London ward and I worked my arse off - despite spending upwards of £300 a month just on the commute. I made peanuts, worked long hours but was always busy and polite.

Nobody had to teach me this, it's just common sense that when you're at work, you work. It wasn't glamorous. I was supposedly gifted and talented at school and had fallen on hard times. It gave me a huge wake-up call as to how other people live. The little bubble of my comprehensive school in a safe leafy home counties town thoroughly burst and I wanted to do more to help others.

I'm going back to uni to study medicine and I have advised friends who are in the same boat to make sure they much in on placement and take all opportunities offered to them. Nothing is "beneath" you and if you take that attitude you're thoroughly disrespecting your colleagues, without whom the NHS as a system would not exist.

I got asked at my interview "if you were a student doctor and saw a patient who had soiled themselves, who would be responsible for clearing them up?". Apparently tons of kids fail that question, offering "the nurse" or "the HCA".

Sorry for the sidetracking... couldn't let that go!

Thanks for the link to the Social Mobility Foundation's scheme princess I'll get our company to sign up.

Like others, I worked my way through Uni; up to 3 jobs at a time and no opportunity for unpaid work during the holidays as I had to earn as much money as possible to pay for the next year. However, I was very fortunate in that two of my jobs were with family owned small businesses who were prepared to invest in me and give me real responsibility. I was almost too embarrassed to mention them on my graduate applications (I worked in a Tandoori resturant and a petrol station), but was offered the first two posts I applied for.

Sometime llater I mentioned this to one of the managers who had sat on my interview panel, to be told that one of the reasons I'd been chosen over other applicants with relevant intern experience, was that I had evidenced 3 years of hard graft and happy employers.

Now I'm an employer, I always do the same!

Medical training isn't an exception by a long shot - I had to give up being a personal tutor for the med school for a while because it did terrible things to my blood pressure. The climax was when I contacted a student about several reported absences from the course and she emailed me back to explain that the problem was being "a tad lazy"

Thank you for the social mobility foundation link. Will forward on to hr.

Just to add a balance. My best ever intern was best friend of the son of somebody v v senior who nobody said no to. Was v sceptical when I "interviewed" him because he'd never had a proper job or even done an internship elsewhere but he was superb. Super bright, keen to learn, a natural at balancing getting the boring bits of the job done, reliable, great at building relationships & all in English, his 3rd language.
Offered him a job - several times, but sadly he decided he didn't want to work in industry. He's doing fabulously well for himself & is genuinely a lovely bloke.

Doesn't change op's entitled plonker but not all the interns parachuted in are awful

Yes I'd like to add that I have 8 years of having fantastic (paid) interns, many of whom we have ended up offering a full position to on graduation.

However this latest intern (who left early today whilst conveniently forgetting to email me the work that he was supposed to complete) is honestly making me feel like not bothering next year. That is just the frustration talking though - it's a bit difficult to take the ideological standpoint when you're dealing with it every day!

Funny person 'I fail to see how producing a list of dentists in a five mile radius is useful in training someone.'

1. It wasn't a list of dentists exactly but close enough in concept. I don't want to put exact details of work projects on mumsnet.
2. He was here on work experience. One of the purposes of which is to experience work in this industry. A large proportion of the work is that sort of trawling through information. It is a good idea to find out you don't like doing it before you're all signed up. Most jobs have a 'non-glamorous' side to them. The fashion designers get to jet set but also spend hours stitching and drawing to give an example. You can't just say, I'm here on work experience, I just want to go to the Vip party and not spend three hours researching what colours have been in vogue the past eighteen seasons.

With the Olympic example the point is to refuse to engage or make small talk will not hold you in good stead in the world of work. It's been on all weekend, it's on bbc breakfast when you are having a morning coffee, it's on the metro on the bus and bloody tube. Everyone knows the olympics are going on. You can say one thing. You can even say, 'I'm not that much into sport and because it's on so late I don't follow it,' that's having a conversation.

The objective was for him to see what work is like here and participate. If we needed extra hands on deck we would have hired a temp because as has been mentioned up thread, in the time spent showing them what to do you could have done it yourself five times over. It is entirely for his benefit and he is taking the piss, it's nothing to do with not being trained in how to teach a grown man how to behave in an office. It's all to do with his attitude which suggests he does not want to be here and the work is beneath him.

Oh and did I mention the assistant who used to preface every sentence with "I didn't get my first class honours degree to do the photocopying/call maintenance to sort out the air conditioning/make the coffee for the visiting VVIP/take the note of the meeting/count the petty cash"? The job spec was clear - there was a certain amount of admin work involved. Show yourself to do that, be adept at taking the note of a meeting and we'll send you to Geneva/New York for a week to do something more interesting.

Its true there are some truly awful ones: the lazy ones, the entitled ones, the arrogant ones, the ignorant ones, the disorganised ones, the rude ones, the lousy communicators, but none of us come into this world perfect doctors/analysts/whatever, we all have to learn how to do the job. Feedback, goal setting, supervision, more feedback: being a tutor/supervisor isn't easy and can be quite stressful imo. But getting someone to write corporate Christmas cards in May? Who benefits from that? Umbridge type detention tasks arent the answer.

I think the subject of small talk, rather like the 'bedside manner' is an interesting one. There is no doubt this gets easier with practice. Those fortunate enough to have parents who socialise a lot are exposed to this in early life but this isn't necessarily the norm, especially for this computer generation. I was brought up to an old fashioned notion that politics, religion and finances (all topics of deep interest in my opinion) should never be mentioned at dinner parties. Whilst this notion goes out the window with good friends, it is still worth bearing in mind at work. Safe topics are short conversations about the weather, sport, theatre/film/music etc. But someone not yet out of uni will need this explained to them if their parents haven't done so. The bet way for them to learn is by observation, these undergraduates are usually very quick learners as long as it is explained to them what it is they are supposed to be learning.