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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To turn your attention to this article **Trigger warning: Child abuse. Title edited by MNHQ**

503 replies

NedStarksHead · 03/08/2016 11:55

After a long and stressful debate/argument on FB, I'd like to turn your attention to these articles....

If you're one of the people who say "murder them all, they're all scum, they should be shot" then just read these and re-think.

Use different wording. A child molester is so different to a pedophile.

http://www.salon.com/2015/09/21/imaapedophilebuttnotaa_monster/

http://www.virped.org

OP posts:
scatterolight · 04/08/2016 10:08

Thankfully acceptance of paedophilia is a last rubicon that even liberal lefty Mumsnetters women won't cross.

The day we're persuaded to feel empathy for paedophiles is the day our civilisation is over. Anyone, like the OP, who tries to break this taboo should be dealt with extreme suspicion.

MammouthTask · 04/08/2016 10:08

Honestly? For me a paedophile is someone who has acted on his impulse and has molested a child. Whether you talk about child molester or paedohile doesn't matter. They have been using their own position of power to get something out of a child they shouldn't have. All that for sexual gratification.

Apart from that, we all have crazy thoughts. I'm sure, going by the posts on MN, there are plenty of people who have had wishes to kill or harm their partner in revenge for example.
The difference is that most people don't act on them. And people don't ask for a special treatment or highlight that they have crazy thoughts to get some 'oh poor you' type of answers.
If he has crazy thoughts he struggles to deal with it, then he should see a MH professional to help with it, just like poeple do when they have PTSD, depression, start hearing voices or whatever.

I'm not sure what else to say. Unless the idea is to say they just can't help it and it is an illness. And then what? A more lenient sentence if they are caught because it's an illness? People being more ciompassionate about them? W
Well tbh, as one the article says, it's not something new as such for them. They will have been with thyat sort of thoughts for years becfore acting on them. They should have asked for help as they still have the ability to separate wright from wrong or to think clearly (which people with MH issues dont always btw)

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2016 10:11

"Honestly? For me a paedophile is someone who has acted on his impulse and has molested a child."

Really? What were they before they acted?

MammouthTask · 04/08/2016 10:12

Betrand there has actually been quiote a lot of work done on children who has assulted another child and this shown that, if treated early enough, it is possible for them to 'relearn' (?) a better way to deal with their sexual feelings.
It is also possible for them to get some counselling etc (I'm sure again that there are 'training' in place). And if THEY choose to, there is still the possibility of chemical castration whihc they are starting to propose in British prisons now

Laiste · 04/08/2016 10:14

99% of the posters on this thread are 'laymen' regarding this topic (as i am) reacting to the OP in the only way they can - from the heart.

However there are a few posters here, such as toptoe, who are speaking from a position of knowledge and experience. They are trying to inform the OP that it's not as simple as distinguishing between 'good' and 'bad' peadophiles.

Asking Joe Public (on a parenting forum!) to have empathy with people who have (when there's no scientific evidence to tell us otherwise) a fetish for kids, is asking too much. What are you asking the empathy for? Funding a 'safe space' for paedophiles? There's no cure.

MammouthTask · 04/08/2016 10:14

Someone who has 'crazy thoughts' and is in need to support, just as someone who would be thinking of killing his entire family iyswim.
Before the killing, they aren't murderers. They are only becoming so ONCE they've acted on it. Before that they are mentally ill.

MammouthTask · 04/08/2016 10:15

But tbh, I'm not sure it makes any difference, whatever the words you are using!

Cutecat78 · 04/08/2016 10:21

In a former role I worked with child sex offenders.

To work with them you have to have empathy with them - it's not an easy thing.

I agree that we all have weird and sometimes disturbing thoughts - whether we like it or not (I don't why adults are attracted sexually to children it is like a massive brain wiring fuck up). I don't feel comfortable about these thoughts but I cannot control what people think.

It's the acting upon it that is evil and fucked up.

Cutecat78 · 04/08/2016 10:22

Sorry to clarify I worked with adults who had committed offences against children.

NorfolkEnchance · 04/08/2016 10:24

abloodydifficultwoman maybe so! Difficult not to react to such utter bull shit though isn't it.

Murder them all, they're all scum, the should be shot.

Right first time.

Lilmisskittykat · 04/08/2016 10:24

I haven't read it... No intention there is no excuse ... Clearly it's a mental health issue as they are not wired correctly to find children and infants sexually attractive.

But I don't feel sorry for them ... That's like accepting it's ok as they are just victims themselves...

Cutecat78 · 04/08/2016 10:24

IMO a peadophile is an adult who harbours sexual desires for children.

They become a sex offender when they act on those desires.

SatsukiKusakabe · 04/08/2016 10:25

They should be treated as someone with a psychiatric illness, not a sexual orientation.

Someone with thoughts of murder or rape is in a state of mental disturbance and needs to seek medical help, not 'empathy', not to write an article about their feelings, splitting hairs about how they are defined; it is the same here. They should be treated, not supported and validated in their psychosis.

user87654321 · 04/08/2016 10:26

Okay, so I looked on Wiki & it appears that it is a mental disorder - for which I have a degree of 'that can't be nice'. But, as previous posters have said, where do you draw the line? These are innocent children.

After reading a previous post which mentioned the power imbalance, I am not sure that paedophiles should have a voice.

Oh, I dunno.

VestalVirgin · 04/08/2016 10:30

(I don't know though- is voluntary physical castration available and has it been shown to reduce the likelihood of becoming an abuser?).

I don't know, but it should be - it IS definitely available under the name of "gender reassignment surgery" and I would think that being a pedophile is at least as good a reason to cut off healthy body parts as "feeling like a woman".

It is not just another 'orientation'. The very position it starts from is one of abuse of power (as pp have said, very eloquently), and I think it is dangerous ground indeed to begin to frame it in this manner.

Sexual abuse of children is abuse of power, but not all men who do it are exclusively attracted to children.
There are many men who are supposedly happily married and whose wives never noticed anything weird, and who then turn out to have sexually abused children. Because children are easier victims than adult women, probably.

I cannot know whether pedophilia is a sexual orientation. I don't have it, and it is basically impossible to know what an other person feels.

Of course I am against punishing pedophiles for being attracted to children - that's punishing of thought-crime, and that's not legal in any civilised country.

But with someone who never uses child porn, never molests children ... that would be between him and his therapist, and possibly the hospital he gets castration at. The general public would never know. So it is mainly an academic discussion.

You said that a paedophile had no right to support or empathy because you could never be sure they hadn't acted on their desires. I pointed out that the same could be said about anyone.

Indeed, and we don't even punish men who watch adult rape porn (by which I mean porn in which a woman is obviously raped. The lack of true consent in all porn is another problem), even though it is obvious they are turned on by rape and could any moment decide that they want to rape a woman.

StrawberryMummy90 · 04/08/2016 10:31

I agree Satsuk

yorkshapudding · 04/08/2016 10:32

Several studies have concluded that most people who are sexually attracted to children do eventually act on their urges in some way. There is therapeutic help available for paedophilles before they offend but, unfortunately, is currently no treatment that has proven to be anywhere near as effective as preventing access to children or very close supervision/monitoring. It would be lovely if there was some magic 'cure' but it doesn't exist.

toptoe · 04/08/2016 10:35

Don't confuse abused children who abuse other children as paedophiles as

  1. They are children
  2. They've been abused and are re-enacting abuse.

It doesn't lessen what they have done, but it is them acting on entirely different impulses for very different reasons.

An adult can be a paedophile without ever having been abused. Thay are acting on impulses to harm another person and get sexual gratification from that. They choose a child because they are an easy target. In their minds they square this as an attraction to children, when actuallly it is an attraction to harming someone.

I'm not sure what image of an abusive relationship anyone has, but even when a paedophile is telling the child they 'love' them or gives them gifts this is not part of a 'normal' loving relationship like you might receive gifts from your lover. It is all designed to keep the child stum and confuse them into thinking they are in some sort of loving relationship. Tactics used by an abuser.

I actually think the term 'paedophile' should be got rid of because it is not about loving children AT ALL.

Cutecat78 · 04/08/2016 10:35

I think if we all take the attitude "they should be shot/locked away for life" it's not actually addressing the problem or interrupting the sometimes perpetuating cycle.

The Lucy Faithful Foundation offers some brilliant training and support around all of these issues and have a good website.

www.lucyfaithfull.org.uk/training.htm

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2016 10:36

What about all the med who access "young teen" pronography?

Porn involving very young looking girls in school uniform is literally two clicks away from this page. Should anyone accessing that be castrated too?

Itscurtainsforyou · 04/08/2016 10:36

I've not read the article but I think I know what the OP is trying to say.
I remember being really challenged after watching the ch4 drama "Secret Life"
http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0899028/

This covered similar subject, a child molester just released from prison was trying not to re-offend, but the urge/compulsion was huge and he struggled to get the help he needed to not offend. I believe the idea was that paedophilia (the thoughts/urges) does not automatically lead to child abuse (the action), but in the interests of child protection these people need help in managing their urges.

It's a difficult, emotive subject to discuss.

Cutecat78 · 04/08/2016 10:37

vestalvirgin

It's not only men who sexually abuse children.

bitemyshinymetalass · 04/08/2016 10:39

OP, most posters haven't read your links or understood. You severely overestimated AIBU'ers ability to think this through, instead you got the usual kneejerk obvious reaction.
Not surprising.

toptoe · 04/08/2016 10:40

It's a personality disorder more like. A disorder that makes them anti-social and enjoy harming others.

There is no love there. To love a child you have an overwhelming desire to protect them.

The sexual feelings are linked to the feeling of power. In the mind of the abuser this may be hard to distinguish. They may feel that the sexual attraction comes first. But it doesn't. The feeling of domination and getting someone who has no clue what's going on to do stuff is paramount.

yorkshapudding · 04/08/2016 10:42

toptoe has a point. There was a study by Hindman and Peters (2001, I think but not 100%) where they found that a large majority of sex offenders initially reported experiencing sexual abuse as children, but when given a polygraph ("lie detector") test, the proportion dropped dramatically, suggesting that some offenders exaggerate or invent early childhood victimisation in order to justify their behavior or gain sympathy from others. As I said in my other post, we are talking about seriously manipulative individuals here.