If he doesn't want a baby, you shouldn't seek CSA

[NeedACleverNN]

Why the hell is this line still trotted out?

I've even seen it on here. Woman falls pregnant, boyfriend doesn't want it and wants an abortion. She doesn't. People advise her to keep the baby and let him go. Don't bother seeking child maintenance because he didn't want the baby in the first place.

No!! If he didn't want a baby he should take his own precautions to preventing pregnancy. You don't like condoms? You don't have sex!

I'm not sure it is especially sensible, it's just that the consequence of unwanted pregnancy is far worse than the consequence of no sex. But, at the moment, the consequence for many men of unwanted pregnancy is very little. Perhaps if it was totally unacceptable to just walk away paying little or no child support then more men might make better choices too.

I think than when men moan about having to pay child support "should have worn a condom" is a perfectly reasonable response. Because it is a reminder that child support is not something that is done to men, it is a consequence of a choice the man makes. It takes no agency from the woman who, usually, is taking at least 50% of the responsibility for the child. In the vast majority of cases (all the ones I know of, certainly) the mother is simply asking that the father takes his fair share of responsibility.

Surely if all men thought like me then there would be far fewer unwanted pregnancies too. Perhaps if they knew someone who went to prison for child neglect due to failing to pay the proper amount of child maintenance or failing to meet the emotional needs of their child then more men would think like me.

If I were to fall pregnant it would significantly impact my body and my career. My entire life would have to change to accommodate a child or I'd face the significant social stigma that comes with being a woman who neglects a child. We can't do much about the body stuff, but there must be a way to more evenly distribute the other stuff so that more men think through the consequences too.

chikara, I think that the options of MAP and abortion are brilliant for women who are happy to take those choices. But not all women are.

I also think that women bore responsibility for unwanted pregnancy was before contraception was readily available. Tess of the d'Urbervilles and Adam Bede are 19th century books that deal with the issue.

chikara, I think that the options of MAP and abortion are brilliant for women who are happy to take those choices. But not all women are.

I also think that women bore responsibility for unwanted pregnancy was before contraception was readily available. Tess of the d'Urbervilles and Adam Bede are 19th century books that deal with the issue.

"I think than when men moan about having to pay child support "should have worn a condom" is a perfectly reasonable response. Because it is a reminder that child support is not something that is done to men"

Yup.

I do think some men assume that if a woman doesn't insist on a condom in a casual situation, she is using some other contraception (they know the impact of pregnancy is greater on her, after all).

They are, in those cases, relying on the woman to be more responsible than they are, perhaps because they are used to women being the gatekeepers of sex and being more careful. They consider men have just that little bit more entitlement to "get carried away".

And of course, a lot of the time, that is the case - sexually active women often do sort out "long term" contraception for themselves, as well as or instead of carrying condoms. Hence the indignance and talk of "trapping", at times, when that assumption doesn't work out for them.

...oh, and many women who do get "carried away" will quietly get themselves the MAP or a coil, or an early abortion, again making the responsibility invisible to men.

voyage, my point is that the consequence that men should be thinking of is having a baby. They shouldn't be abdicating that responsibility to the women. It would be lovely to be totally in the moment every time I have sex, but due to societal attitudes and basic biology that isn't a luxury afforded to me.

I take serious issue with the idea that it should be up to the woman to say 'no' in order to focus the mind of the man. By pushing men to take an appropriate amount of responsibility for their children we would get a double benefit - focusing their minds at the moment of decision to use contraception to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and ensuring a decent start for all children born due to contraceptive failure.

I agree, prison is expensive. But that isn't a good enough reason to give a free pass the significant number of men who are guilty of child neglect. We live in one of the richest countries in the world. "We can't afford it" doesn't cut it with me - not on something this important.

There are certain men who will whip the condom off DURING sex.

184,571 abortions in 2014, 92% first trimeter. Can't find stats for MAP prescription but surveys show up to 1 in 5 teenagers have taken it,

Jacquetta i lot of those cases will be because the woman will not want to be bullied into having the child either by her partner (because some men will profess to want the child then fuck off when reality sinks in) or she may face being pressured into it by her family if they are anti choice whether that is for religious/cultural reasons or not.

"There were 695,233 live births in England and Wales in 2014"

So the ratio of abortions to live births is pretty high (appreciate some abortions will be for medical reasons). Women are already taking quite a lot of responsibility on avoiding unwanted births.

voyage. My ex's mum did disown my ex when she learnt he wasn't paying me maintenance. They haven't spoken now in over 9 years.

Some more, older stats:

Current contraceptive usage in the UK
The last survey on contraceptive use was done by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) in 2008-9 and at that time showed:[4]

75% of women aged 16-49 years use some type of contraception.
25% of women use the combined oral contraceptive pill (COCP).
25% of women rely on male condom use.
In women aged 18-29 years, similar numbers of women use the COCP as they do condoms (the most frequent methods).
Approximately one third of women aged 16-19 years use contraceptives - half using condoms and half taking the COCP.
A woman or partner has been sterilised in 17% of reported use.
Sterilisation is used more frequently in women aged over 30 years.
However, statistics from community contraceptive clinics in England in 2013-2014 (and therefore involving a more limited group of the population) published by the Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC) showed:[5]

1.34 million people accessed sexual and reproductive health services in the one-year time frame, of whom 89% were women.
The service was mostly used by women aged 18-19.
Oral contraceptives were the most commonly used form of contraception across all ages, used by 47% of women.
31% used long-acting reversible contraceptives (LARCS), an increase from 18% in 2003-2004.

Or men could ostracise other men who fail to take appropriate responsibility for their actions. Your argument seems to boil down to "loads of men are shit so women will just have to pick up the slack". Which is no better than a shrug of the shoulders tbh.

Jessica you are right about women bearing the consequences - thankfully those terrible consequences are lees likely now. (At least I think/hope so)

voyage, I think we differ on just one thing.

Society is far more accepting men abandoning their kids than it is with women who do. This includes women who moan about child maintenance paid to step-children as well as the men who avoid paying it. In the eyes of society as a whole, children are the responsibility of women. The "single mother as either sinful or pitiable" narrative is part of this.

I think where we disagree is how to deal with it. In my opinion, the way to deal with it is by making more men take more responsibility for their children. I accept that it might have limited success. Expecting all men to realise that sex might mean full parental responsibility and require them to be good parents is a fantasy. But so is expecting it of all women. Imagine a world where men took equal responsibility for child-rearing as women. It might be an ideal, but is wouldn't half be a good place to start.

chikara, I'd like to think those consequences are less likely too. Then I look at poverty statistics for children in single mother households.

Women get censured for not preventing pregnancy quite often - on here, it's often "why did you have another child with this man?" - there's a thread right now where a wife has wanted to relocate since the birth of her first child and her husband doesn't and that has been said, although the second child is now 5! Appreciate that the husband isn't posting but there's no suggestion that HE should've said "let's hold off on TTC again until we've resolved this issue"