If he doesn't want a baby, you shouldn't seek CSA

[NeedACleverNN]

Why the hell is this line still trotted out?

I've even seen it on here. Woman falls pregnant, boyfriend doesn't want it and wants an abortion. She doesn't. People advise her to keep the baby and let him go. Don't bother seeking child maintenance because he didn't want the baby in the first place.

No!! If he didn't want a baby he should take his own precautions to preventing pregnancy. You don't like condoms? You don't have sex!

TBF i winced after reading the male contraception injection post. But I think men wince at the thought of childbirth too!

Yep, so it doesn't mean the majority.

So if you were having a ONS (obviously you should be using condoms!) would you believe a man who said he was in the male
Injection?

I've been with my DH 15 years and I take care of contraception - because I don't want to be pregnant again ever! I'm not sure even now I would trust male contraception

NewStart

On a ONS, probably not. But that's not the point: the man would be taking responsibility for his own contraception and thereby reducing his risk (in the context of this thread) of paying CSA.

Just as a man now can (and should) choose to use a condom in a ONS even if the woman has said she's got a coil or whatever,

Sorry, I phrased that badly.

I might well believe him; that doesn't mean I wouldn't take or have taken my own steps.

I think really a major issue is that men see sex differently. It's divorsed from thoughts of cute babies.

And that's the crux of the problem. But there's no reason why men should think like that. Start teaching all kids, all the time that any child they conceive, whether they are male or female, is their responsibility, and they will grow up aware of that. Couple with seeing men who try to wriggle out of paying actually being brought to justice, and it really wouldn't take long to change the behavior. Less than a generation.

the govt. at one point decided that drink driving had to stop. It simply cost too much in terms of emergency care and loss of productivity. So there were major advertising campaigns to change opinion, much more intervention by the police, and harsher penalties which were absolutely adhered to. Even people like my parents, who grow genuinely believing that a sherry before dinner, a glass or two of wine, and then a coffee to perk you up meant you were OK to drive, completely changed their minds.

So - IF a govt decided that they were sick of paying out benefits to support children because of NRP who bugger off saying 'oops, only wanted sex, not a baby' then they could actually change how people think and behave.

And males would grow up fully aware that having sex could lead to having to support a child.

In the event that the father does not wish to have the child, the mother still has the right to choose, but does so knowing that she does so without the support of the child's father.

So the taxpayer picks up the bill? Why should I pay for his child?

VoyageOfDad, do you really think of yourself as some kind of dumb animal driven only by evolutionary instinct? No wonder the world is a mess.

I can't believe this discussion is still going. But seeing that it is, can somebody explain to me how the proposed system of fathers opting out of parenthood would work from the legal end?

• Will there be some kind of early pregnancy grace period when fathers will be allowed to decide? E.g. two weeks from the discovery of pregnancy? What if the pregnancy is not discovered until after three or four months or even later (this happens!)?

• How will the man express his desire to not be a father? Will there be a document that he will have to sign? Will this document have to be witnessed by a doctor and a notary public? Will this document become a matter of public record or be kept somewhere in the man's file? Will the child have the right to access this document? Will there be a legal limit on the number of "opt-outs" a man can have - e.g. a max of three children after which the state is going to say "have a snip of pay up?"?

• Will the man's agreement to act as a father need equal legal expression through notarised documentation? What if the prospective father is a legal minor?

• What happens in situations where a man intentionally impregnated a woman (e.g. told her that he wanted the baby) but then changed his mind? Must the initial agreement be somehow documented? Will we all have apps on our phones where we have to sign into into the government bonking website and state "yes or no" before we have sex? Will sex without signing in become illegal?

• Will the men who sign away their paternal status in terms of payment also sign away their right to see their children? What if they see the light and change their mind later?

• Will the woman have an equal legal right to say "nah, I don't want this bloke as a father of my child (irrespective of the wishes of the man) and deny him all access to the child as long as she does not accept payment"?

This is really starting to sound like fun!

JacquettaWoodville NewStartNewName - and others - that's what I meant about making bloody sure an "accident" didn't happen when it would have been a disaster for me.

And when I wanted a baby, could afford it, was older and knew DP wouldn't mind too much - I was less thorough.
KickAssAngel _ I agree about the campaign to change minds. It will happen as it is getting too expensive. That's when the male contraceptive options will improve.

At the moment single women who have kids can survive as there is a state-financed safety net, part -time work options, general support and a society that for the most accepts single-parenthood. So women do not have such strong reasons to make sure it does not happen. Men don't either as they are not forced to support the child if they choose not to.

When that changes - which it will when money gets tighter and society's priorities shift - then both sexes will take more care.

You should try being a single parent if you think society is largely accepting of it! It is not my experience, that's for sure. Or do I get some kind of in between status because I was married to their father when I had them??!!

AutumnMadness - obviously Voyage doesn't think of himself and the rest of his sex as dumb animals but the biological point is valid and we understand things better if we take into account all the factors.

The rest of your post - whilst seemingly far-fetched- is scarily relevant.

We are already at the stage - you must see threads on here - when women deny men access, (or make it very difficult). Payment and access is frequently linked and we often hear "he does not have a right to see...." (The child's rights to a father are not considered if the mother does not like him or considers him "abusive" or "controlling")

Your point about the initial agreement to have kids being documented - it used to be marriage. That's why women tried to avoid sex before marriage and if babies were conceived after marriage they had rights of support and there was proof of the agreement. (Didn't always work of course but it was a start). (PS - am a single unmarried parent myself and disagree with marriage but the point is that it had a function)

And the app thing - well it wouldn't surprise me> I hope not and I would always advocate responsible sex, responsible parenting and respect for the child - but we are a long way from that.

It is not helpful to blame men. We need a shift in everyone's attitudes.

cannotlogin - I am unmarried and have two teens. I have never experienced any disapproval from anyone. Not even my catholic family!

Financially it is hard but I cope.

Sashh "
So the taxpayer picks up the bill? Why should I pay for his child?"

Not necessarily, surely.

PS - cannotlogin - that doesn't mean I believe it is the same for everyone. Sorry it has been hard for you. Maybe I have been lucky.

This is one if those issues that really bothers me!

Think MN should campaign to get more fathers to pay up. I don't understand why they get away with non-payment! You wouldn't buy a house, not pay the mortgage and expect nothing to change... Why is it acceptable to do that to a child??

Yes, "Voyage", I do see myself as a "super being" if by "super being" you mean somebody who is able to accept and carry responsibility. And you are not able to rise above your evolutionary instinct (or whatever) and behave like a civilized responsible human being, then you should not have the status of legal majority, because god knows what else you will be driven to do by your evolutionary instincts - you might go around raping and killing because you just can't help yourself.

I would just love to see how your evolutionary instinct would stand up in court: "Ermm, you know, your honour, yes, I impregnated this woman intentionally with the full intention of doing a runner, but it was because I am a man and have the instinct desire to spread my seed! I just cannot control myself!" Judge: "Ah, ok then, go and make some more babies!".

If we're so akin to the animals, why don't men have babies like seahorses? Or bring up the young like penguins?

Sorry, but the 'it's evolution' is a pile of crap argument. It's been done to death. There is no scientific reason for men to have a different attitude towards having babies, it's what they grow up believing. Change the expectations of society and the attitude, and money, will change.

I do think though that the amount spent on benefits in the UK (not other countries, where men are forced to pay and seem to have a different understanding of the relationship between sex and babies. Yet another strike against the evolutionary bollocks) to subsidize fuck-wits who don't support their children, will be what brings about a change. I can't believe how much the numbers must be (and I don't know a figure, but we're talking thousands and thousands of absent parents, hundreds per month, it is big numbers) but at some point politicians will just realize that the benefits bill could be cut by making parents pay to support their own kids.