If he doesn't want a baby, you shouldn't seek CSA

[NeedACleverNN]

Why the hell is this line still trotted out?

I've even seen it on here. Woman falls pregnant, boyfriend doesn't want it and wants an abortion. She doesn't. People advise her to keep the baby and let him go. Don't bother seeking child maintenance because he didn't want the baby in the first place.

No!! If he didn't want a baby he should take his own precautions to preventing pregnancy. You don't like condoms? You don't have sex!

This issue has not personally affected me, but I still see that allowing men to hand their responsibilities to their children over to the taxpayer is a few steps away from coercing women with no financial support into abortions.

sunshine. I'm hoping to get legal advice with this shortly. Was hoping not to get to this point, and that we might have worked access/maintenance out between uswithout intervention, but it doesn't look likely.

lilac do you have kids?

1) that question makes no sense. I do not advocate that women be forced into parenthood. I am extremely pro abortion rights.

It does make sense. You've written paragraph after paragraph about how women shouldn't have sex if they don't want a baby and should think before they fuck. But you don't think the same applies to men? Why not?

2) Yes, he gets the same timeframe to change his mind

Why is this fair when he planned for that baby all along? Why would you want women and (wanted) children shafted so easily?

3) Yes, they all get the opportunity to opt out, just as married women etc can choose abortion regardless of what their partner wants.

Then you my dear are disgusting misogynist. and may I remind you, a woman opting out (abortion) bears no long-term financial or emotional consequences on a man. A man opting out means at least 2 people, including a child who has done no wrong, lose out financially and emotionally.

Also your last answer contradicts what you replied to Merchant -

I agree each party should be explicit before sex takes place and make sure they are understood

But apparently you think men saying "I really want to conceive a baby" should be allowed to change their minds post-conception, so really it doesn't matter what each party explicit sets out beforehand?

I'm trying hard to understand why you'd support a vast increase in poverty for women and children so men can save a few quid? You really are the worst kind of person. And I don't know what your gripe is with mum's who have a baby "out of wedlock". Presumably it's ok for unmarried men to conceive as much as they'd like with no consequences for their actions?

Luckily ill thought misogynisic views like yours are not law and I'm 99.9% sure they never will be. men in this country have to stump up for good reason, and it's hard enough getting them to do that. I can only assume that to want more men escaping responsibilities you either have a very large axe to grind or you're just plain thick

pinky. I'm struggling to find the 'incoherence' in your posts!

lilac. If - and I hope I'm wrong - you are here to defend a man who is not supporting his children, then please do yourself a favour and LTB.

Pinky what is your experience of this people may understand where you are coming from.

sunshine - none! I am married, have only been married once and have a DD and a baby on the way. I just see things from the point of view of a child who could be adversely affected, and think that in any unwanted conception situation the needs and welfare of the child should always always always come first

Thank you lorelei, me too but then I did write them

For other single mothers struggling with/hurt by the misogyny on this thread, may I also suggest the wonderful Gingerbread website, and also Jezebel.com (can't do links, sorry!)

As to lilac's sudden disappearance, I imagine she is:

(a). Changing her username.

(b). Texting her DP's ex over her 'irrational' demands for child support.

Surely everyone can agree a woman has every right to full control of her body.

And a man has full control of his, yes?

Then why are so many people blaming one party and cutting the other some slack. And ffs, the worst - refusing to understand men should and are very very capable of taking responsibility.

Again, the only time men and women will have an equal and fair say is when their bodies are and their abilitiy to give birth is the same.

Right now the system is fair. It is equal because it takes into account the risks inc death a woman gambles with when choosing either abortion or live birth.

Yes, women do die or suffer life changing injuries from abortions. Perforated womb, infection. And the statement up thread about it 'just being a Couple of pills'

No it's not. It involves internal examinations by two doctors inc an internal ultrasound, a visit to a nurse for bloods, who also thrusts leaflets for counselling locally, an appointment with a contraception nurse who goes through post abortion options with you, a very invasive list of questions regarding your sexual habits then you have to wait up to a week to get the appointment for the actual abortion whilst still dealing with pregnancy related symptoms. Depending on what stage you are at will determine your course of treatment. Abortions via pills can result in an incomplete abortion and women will have to go into surgery for and D&C. Surgery isn't pleasant. The whole experience makes you feel shit because you are forced to sit in a waiting room in a hospital gown with other women, some in tears, having just been given a pessary to open your cervix so you're sat there, in pain, cramping and feeling sick from the meds knowing what is about to happen and given no privacy at all to deal with it all then walked into theatre one at a time like a conveyer belt.

Having a D&C post miscarriage I was treated with far more respect and dignity than I did going through an abortion. It is a horrible experience and I am not surprised many women cannot go through with that option and I do not blame them.

So until a man has to go through an experience as comparable to that if he decides not to be a dad then he will get no say in what happens post conception when it comes to my body.

I have read some of the pages and some of the posts sounds bonkers. I can't put it into words on here. From what I have read man can drop his trousers and walk away if he wants to at any stage he wants. I wonder if Lilac is with a man like that. My local cc he told me he didn't want his twin children and I was shocked his children lived abroad and he was here. He had sex with her so he should help to support what he created. Men should not cop out of there responsibilities.

Actually we just had a quiet, peaceful glass of wine in our lakeside cottage garden.

I have never dated a childed man and never will, frankly. But as a woman with a fair amount of life experience and no hang ups about abortion, I think it behooves us all to ensure that only human beings very much wanted by both parents get born. carrying forth a pregnancy when you know you are dooming a person to a lifetime of feeling rejected & abandoned by one of its bio parents is not a noble act.

Not conceiving out of wedlock (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) would be a great start but I realize that quaint notion won't fly here.

I have boy/girl teenagers and so I've talked to them about the potential of babies following sex a fair bit. ds did kick back a bit about it 'not being fair' that if a pregnancy accidentally occurred after sex he wouldn't be in the driving seat. I put that down to being a teenager, I'd not expect a grown man to still have that mindset.

Biology isn't fair. dd has irregular painful periods and recurrent ovarian cysts because she has a female reproductive system. My c-section scars hurt like fuck if I sneeze. That's not fair either. We'd both I think be more than happy for the menfolk in our family to have the ovaries and wombs instead of us, but it's not a choice we have.

Currently ds has decided he will never have sex, which is a valid choice. If he does, and if that sex leads to a pregnancy and that pregnancy to a child (getting abortions isn't very easy where we live, involving a minimum four hour drive and several night's stay away) then he knows we would expect him to act like the father he would be and to financially and emotionally support his child.

If I knew someone who abdicated all responsibility for their child, wanted or not at any point in their life I would think that they were a selfish shit. Parents should be forced to take more responsibility for their children, not helped to opt out even further than some of them already do.

Plus at the moment you have to have counseling before abortions to be sure that you really want one. I think most service providers would have a massive problem with providing abortions to women who really don't want them at all.

Both men and women should be able to change their minds post conception even if they were "trying" to fertilize an egg by mutual agreement.

Women can do that now, but men can't. My my how misogynistic!

Lilac it doesn't always work like that what if you became pregnant and he decided to up and leave you. What would you do because the idilic family you thought you was going to have after a long relationship weren't going to happen then what. He decided to run of with his pretty young receptionist.

Twat. Thank you. An explicit and heartbreaking post on the realities of the so-called 'easy option'.

So take it lilac you have no kids then? Or experience of pregnancy, or abortion, or stepchildren? Just a random musing about abortions based on the notion a Utopian style society, which we don't have.

Yes in an ideal world every child would be born into 'perfect' circumstances, but that's not the case and not the discussion were having. It's about the notion that women should only ever bear the responsibility of having a child if men don't want to, cos you know they can just have an abortion - simples!

PS I did ARF at the stealth boast. I bet you're drinking lambrini at your mate's high rise

I think it behooves us all to ensure that only human beings very much wanted by both parents get born. carrying forth a pregnancy when you know you are dooming a person to a lifetime of feeling rejected & abandoned by one of its bio parents is not a noble act.

That's really insulting. Not that it's any of your business but my son doesn't feel doomed, rejected or abandoned in the slightest.

You do know that we live in very unusual times where both parents are actively involved in the child's upbringing? I'm not saying it's a bad thing but you need to stop thinking your 2 parent nuclear setup is so superior for being traditional because it's really neither.

nooka I think you need to back track on calling someone a selfish shit if they have an abortion incase anyone reads that. I don't think you understand how damaging that statement is and its very offensive. I feel very angry at your statement because you have no clue what is happening out in the real world.

Both men and women should be able to change their minds post conception even if they were "trying" to fertilize an egg by mutual agreement

No they shouldn't. Simply as I've said many times and you haven't addressed, women 'opting out' leaves men with no ties, men opting-out leaves a woman with either -
A. An abortion she doesn't want to have
B. Bringing up a child with half the support on one salary, possibly in poverty.

It's why the law is as it is. But no, you know better clearly

If you can't see how that's misogynistic, you really are extremely dim and I don't know what else to say

They ignore her and her ridiculous views (despite no kids or life experience it seems, and despite the alleged cottage which seems to make her think she's superior ).

I have no time at all for idiots people who see parenthood as some awful doomed existence that must be stopped at all costs.

I think we should all be grateful lilac is not a parent

sunshine I think nooka was referring to people who reject a child that has been born rather than women having abortions. I had to re read her post as I thought "?! I missed that part"