to be glad that the Guardian is making enormous losses

[longfingernails]

www.pressgazette.co.uk/guardian-losses-reported-to-have-escalated-by-a-further-10m-to-68-7m-for-the-last-financial-year/

Great stuff. Their chatterati condescension, Islington moral vacuum and politically correct echo chamber has been a malignant blot upon our society for decades.

Let it wither upon the Viner.

I suspect the Op might be a buy-to-let landlord

the political correctness angle claimed by those services who failed the children in Rotherham so badly was mendacious. Frankly it was their "get out clause" they could shift the blame from their own failings and easily make it about race, which of course would ignite any anti immigrant feeling and inflame the tabloid reading masses. In essence it was a form of racism in its self and gives the impression that these men were allowed to get away with this because of their race and culture

smallfox, yes, yes and YES! Couldn't agree more.

When something IS outrageous I want it reported as outrageous.

I don't agree.
I want journalists to give me the facts, as much as possible, not their opinion on it.
That's why I avoid tabloids

I can become outraged by myself. I don't need newspapers to be outraged for me.

Or tell me how to vote, for that matter.

I also prefer alleged than telling me who's guilty based on people's reports and journalists' opinions.
It's for courts to try people. Not newspapers, although they can and should present evidence as best as they can and every person can be biased anyway.

We all know of false accusations and people who are wrongly convicted in the courts and in the press.
I'd rather draw my own conclusions.

I think this is a great shame, it may not be such a popular view but I have to say: I read the Guardian (Kindle edition) every single day and the Observer on Sundays, and I love some of the writing, and some of the investigative work. My half hour with it every morning is the best start to my day and shakes my brain out for the start to work.

Yes, I like journalists to give me the facts as well. It's just that the Guardian has a selective view of what facts are. Remember Gary Moore, one of their writers, saying how Geary Adams should be remembered for his humanitarian work, for example?

Jerry Adams!

I don't just want facts, I DO want opinion pieces too. I can tell the difference.

I like reading opinions but I don't want all the opinions to be the same. I want a range of opinions and maybe a bit of an argument. That's why I like mumsnet.
Too many Guardian opinion are just Polly Toynbee sound alikes. They should give Lucy Mangan's Toryboy an opinion piece. That would be fun.

the political correctness angle claimed by those services who failed the children in Rotherham so badly was mendacious. Frankly it was their "get out clause" they could shift the blame from their own failings and easily make it about race, which of course would ignite any anti immigrant feeling and inflame the tabloid reading masses. In essence it was a form of racism in its self and gives the impression that these men were allowed to get away with this because of their race and culture

I'm closely associated with the families of one of the victim. This shows an absolutely astounding level of ignorance about the entire case and is offensive on so many levels. I suggest that you sit down and have a proper read of the Jay and Casey reports before spouting nonsense like that.

A specific finding was that a large driver of the abuse being allowed to continue for so long was a fear of being accused of racism if moves were made to confront or admit the abuse.

It's also very clear that the offences which were ignored were ignored on race grounds. White on white, white on Asian or Asian on Asian crimes were not ignored or sidelined in the same way. Agencies that attempted to deal with them were not shut down. The police didn't refuse to investigate them, they didn't arrest complainants.

The official reports into Rotherham found that, yes, race and culture were very much a factor in allowing these men to 'get away with it'.

Sorry Bill, I don't buy it for a second.

If it was "race and culture" that allowed these men to get away with it why are Asian men over represented in the prison population? Why are Asian men more likely to be stopped and searched? Why do they receive proportionally higher sentences for the same crimes than white British men?

There is no problem arresting Asian men for other crimes, so why in this case was "race and culture" the factor that stopped them being so? Why in the Jay and Casey reports is there evidence of the girls complaints being dismissed by the police?

Its OK to go after Asian men for drugs and other offences but not for sex crimes to do with young women? Why is "race and culture" not a debilitating factor in the others? Pull the fucking other one. It wasn't race that was the factor, but the young women and their situation which allowed the continuation of it.

Its my reading that the reports took the " race and culture" claims too easily, and when we look at other sex cases around the country regarding young and vulnerable people the pattern is repeated, whatever " race or culture" the abusers come from.

I don't just want facts, I DO want opinion pieces too.

Sure, but reporting as such should be about facts, not opinions.

Opinions should be given when the facts are known, and before that they should consider that there may be two sides or more, or should stick to what is actually known.

If you read the news reports Lwej, the Grauniad reported the facts as they were, the problem most people have cited on here is the opinion pieces.

It's quite simple foxes. Some crimes, CSE being one, can be dealt with subjectively in a way which other crimes can't.

Either someone has sold drugs or they haven't. Either someone has punched someone in the face or they haven't. Either someone has stolen something or they haven't. It's pretty hard to argue that a bag of heroin was consensually sold and it was the drugs fault, or that someone was happy to be punched in the face and was content for the offence to be committed, or that someone might have a cultural difference which means that they view flinging a packet of razor blades in their bag without paying for them as acceptable.

Also those crimes tend just to be dealt with via the criminal justice system - the police and the courts. CSE offences travel a different route through other 'soft' agencies such as care services, licencing agencies, schools, hospitals - which handle events in a different way, often motivated more by politics, votes, political theory and local factionalism that things like drug dealing or fraud are. It's not simply a matter of 'Well if x can be convicted of TWOCKING without his race being taken into account it can't be possible that his race was taken into account when he wasn't investigated for CSE'. It's comparing apples and pears.

You're also repeating a lot of clichés which have actively been discredited. I assume by the 'situation' of the girls you mean the myth that they were all in care so nobody cared about them? Totally discredited. Many of the girls involved came from loving families who tried desperately to rescue them and begged the agencies concerned for help but were turned away.

The Casey report actually specifically named two Asian councillors who used the race issue to suppress investigation of events and also that offenders concerned used race to avoid investigation and that this was a known factor amongst the police.

You're just repeating things which have been tried as excuses before and discredited before.

It wasn't race that was the factor, but the young women and their situation which allowed the continuation of it

What situation was that Small? Some girls were in the care system but many were from normal supportive loving families. Listening to one families account of desperately trying to get the police involved and facing a Kafkaesque wall, was one of the most awful things I have heard.
Because it could happen to anyone. That was a very clear message that came out. I have read of many parents plight when trying to free their dc from these mens grips, in the UK and also in Holland.

smallfox2002

Actually, most of the pps here were about how the Guardian had reported the Cologne attacks. Supposedly being late or minimising.

Not so much, if at all, how it was commented. In fact, one comment was linked to where it asked some hard questions.

I didn't follow how the Guardian handled it properly, but I did follow the thread.

The Cologne attacks were reported straight, EVERYONE reported it late because there was a media blackout from the Police till the 5th, when everyone else reported it too.

To address Bill Sykes load of drivel above, many of the girls involved were in care, the conviction of one of the women providing care and the citing in the Casey report in the executive summary that Rotherham councl "In particular, it is failing in its duties to protect vulnerable children and
young people from harm" does not thoroughly discredit anything, in fact it more than reinforces my point.

Also it doesn't matter if you are from a loving family, if you are a teenage girl who is being used and abused as part of a sex ring, even an allegation that you are underage and are sleeping with a much older man, means that you are at risk and it is down to the police and social services to intervene. I have experience of this as a case and it is taken very seriously.

Bill your points about they way these cases are investigated are the total opposite of my experience of them, these cases are treated very seriously and thorough investigation given. As I've said it wasn't the "race and culture" that is the question here its the massive failure of the services, which the Casey report thoroughly criticises.

When we widen the scope from just Rotherham, what you will notice is that across the country services fail young women repeatedly in this sort of situation, and fails vulnerable young women very badly, the same excuses are given just not the "race and culture" which was the default excuse here when the others didn't work. You know the ones about it being a lifestyle choice.

Your point about two Asian councillors is frankly funny, I've never heard of two borough councillors being influential enough to discourage investigation of serious sexual cases.

Sorry Bill, there is nothing discredited about my point, even the Casey report highlights the failings of the council and the services here, it is not an issue of race and culture, as stated that was a get out clause, it is a case of massive systematic failure.

Poor little OP

Foxes, if you are saying that you have experience of Rotherham as a case you are clearly lying on the basis of this quote alone:

Also it doesn't matter if you are from a loving family, if you are a teenage girl who is being used and abused as part of a sex ring, even an allegation that you are underage and are sleeping with a much older man, means that you are at risk and it is down to the police and social services to intervene. I have experience of this as a case and it is taken very seriously.

It's completely accepted by all sides that the girls involved (in care or not) were viewed as promiscuous girls in consensual relationships regardless of their age or the age of the men involved. Your comment above just highlights your absolute total ignorance of this case.

these cases are treated very seriously and thorough investigation given.

No they weren't, not in Rotherham. Which was the entire point of the Jay and Casey reports.

As I've said it wasn't the "race and culture" that is the question here its the massive failure of the services, which the Casey report thoroughly criticises.

The Casey report also concentrates heavily on race and culture as a factor in the cover up of the abuse.

Your point about two Asian councillors is frankly funny, I've never heard of two borough councillors being influential enough to discourage investigation of serious sexual cases.

Yes, you obviously haven't heard of this because of your total ignorance of the Rotherham cases, despite your decision to pontificate on them.

If you did have even a passing knowledge of the case you might have some knowledge of these specific councillors, their manipulation of the taxi licensing system, the corruption they were involved with, allegations made against them in court ( including personal involvement in abuse), their involvement with convicted abusers.

You might know that an official investigation of the council accused them of corruption which extended to influence with the police and described them as 'intimidating and powerful figures within Rotherham'.

You might know that in court it was alleged that one of these councillors had been involved with 'no prosecution' deal with the police to get an abuser to hand over an abused underage victim.

You might know that their are still police complaints involving these councillors and their involvement with officers underway.

I could carry on...but my point is that you know none of these things because you are entirely, completely and utterly ignorant of the details of the case and are making entirely misleading and inaccurate claims about the causes and outcomes.

Honestly, to anybody with just a passing knowledge of the case your claims are absolutely laughable.

I read the Guardian after Cologne and I ended up complaining about factual errors.

I didn't just dream it..

Some personal knowledge of the corruption cases in west/South Yorkshire here.

billsykesdog is absolutely correct. Intimidating and powerful sums it up.

"It's completely accepted by all sides that the girls involved (in care or not) were viewed as promiscuous girls in consensual relationships regardless of their age or the age of the men involved. Your comment above just highlights your absolute total ignorance of this case."

Which is a massive systematic failure, in no way should a young woman/underage girl being in a "relationship" with a much older man ever be passed off as that, it has nothing to do with race and culture of the man involved that this was so, and everything to do with the negligence of the services involved. Using "race and culture" is an excuse for their failures.

In the job I am in this sort of thing would have set off alarms that would have brought multi agency involvement very quickly. The fact that they were not so in Rotherham indicates not just that race and culture were involved but that there was a massive systematic failure.

I'm aware of the charges and the corruption of the two councilors involved, but I was balking at your suggestion that they were powerful enough to disuade police from making investigations into serious cases, if the police were seriously looking they wouldn't be put off by two councillors. Again your point about a "no prosecution deal" of which I am aware, suggests corruption on behalf of the police involved and again the systematic failure of the services charged with protecting the young women.

The fact that these relationships were allowed and didn't set off massive investigations with police and social services indicates the massive failure of these services and to put the blame at the door of merely "race and culture" as many have ( but interestingly neither of the reports focus just on this and are heavily critical of the services involved) is indicative of allowing the excuse to stand. The Casey report discuss the race issue and says that people were afraid to challenge without being branded as racist, and about the EDL/BNP using the CSE as an excuse to target the Pakistani community. To my mind this shows the absolute rank amatuerism of the services involved, child protection should always be placed above the hurting of feelings or causing offence and these services should have known this.

As I've said race and culture is an issue in this case, but again, widen the scope and the massive trend is apparent that the sytems put in place to protect these young women massively fail in many parts of the country, and looking at the historic sex cases going it has done for decades.

Your constant attempts to make this only about race and culture are poor, but then they are in keeping with your comments about refugees and immigrants on other threads.

It isn't only about race and culture. Very few events are caused by one single trigger.

The situation in Rotherham (which I'm quite familiar with unfortunately) was a toxic mix of things. Crap children's services (those in South Yorkshire are pretty dire too) played a part. But this has been going on for ages, and there was huge reluctance to investigate for fear of appearing racist. There's also a very unpleasant cabal of powerful men in positions of community and political power who used all their influence to impede the investigation. The jay report is sobering reading.
the problem with shouting racist/islamophobic is that sometimes an attack does have a racist /cultural component, and racism goes both ways. It's not always as simple as white attacking brown. for example:

Welsh holiday cottage arson attacks
Sectarian violence around old firm games
Honour killings
Antisemitic attacks
Rotherham

We can't be afraid of looking racist, or culture o phobic when crimes are being committed. It means the perpetrators can operate with impunity.

White on white, white on Asian or Asian on Asian crimes were not ignored or sidelined in the same way. Agencies that attempted to deal with them were not shut down. The police didn't refuse to investigate them, they didn't arrest complainants.

Not true. When I was in my early teens I was abused by a family member who tried to force me into prostitution. All involved were white. The police refused to investigate and threatened me with arrest for complaining. Social services were also terrible.

small I am in total agreement with Bill Sykes here too.

I followed the cases closely at the time and did lots of reading round the subject.
Race is an undeniable factor in Rotheram and in the almost identical abuse rings smashed in Oxford, Derby, Bristol, Telford, Banbury, Aylesbury, and keighley all of which had abuse rings, run by men of Pakistani heritage targeting young white girls.

You sound very naive Small and now we know race was a factor in the cover up, (we know this through the subsequent court cases and reports), I find your posts almost - distasteful quite frankly.
You seem to want to point score agaisnt Bill and win arguments, for the sake of it, forgetting the deeply upsetting subject matter you are discussing.