To wonder why casual or even overt racism is acceptable on MN?

[RedHareWithBlondeHair]

Just this - there's a thread in Site Stuff asking the same but I'd like to ask the wider MN audience why is this fine. Just in the recent past we've had a poster questioning an 'apparent' adam's apple on one of the greatest female athletes and another poster hellbent on telling us that Police violence on black men isn't a 'thing'. In these threads HQ HAS left the thread to stand and in their words " we felt that the discussion that followed was interesting and informative and educational for the OP." Why is that? If I started a thread about Taylor Swift being an attention seeking whore or a thread about ADHD children just needing a telling off I'd be deleted within the hour. Why the fuck do other MNetters think ethnic minorities are up for grabs? Why does HQ think the same? In the thread on Site Stuff there's only an apology. This sort of shit happens repeatedly. Why?

Even after MNHQ acknowledged the thread needed deleting - it still took 40 minutes from the email to actual deletion with the OP still able to post.....

Antique - we are not talking about poster who want to be educated.... their aim was to offend.....

I also said on my other thread that Islamaphobia on this site is horrendous!

MN is also a business, with advertising.

They don't want their site full of racism I'm sure, it's not sheer censorship to.protect people's feelings.

Yes, it's awful. The adam's apple thread was something else.

I was just on the Guardian altercating with some wanker who thinks unaccompanied Syrian children should be abandoned to whatever horrendous fate because 'we don't have enough space for them'.

Swap you for my "unaccompanied refugees don't exist or if they do they must be being treated really well because if they weren't the world's media would be kicking up a fuss about it and anyway why didn't you personally grab them and carry them to the nearest lawyer who could get them citizenship, a home and a school place because all lawyers work for free" adversary?

And I am not going to hide - I am a part of this online community and deserve to be treated with respect. By pretending the thread doesn't exist and allow another person to stumble across the hate is not my style

I don't know Duchess. As Unikitty says, sometimes the countering challenges can serve to deligitimuze those vile views more effectively than deletion. There is no clear line where the potential for offence outweighs the value of debate.

Yes fan: people who complain of 'PC gone mad' are invariably bigots; but that dies not necessarily mean people who object to racism should not be given the opportunity to robustly challenge it.

We also are obliged to stick to the Talk Guidelines which forbid racism.

It's a moderated site not some free for all in interests of education.

I also believe in the site being here to support parents and it's not very supportive to post racist or disablist words. Life shold be about compassion not just education and debate.

Again I must stress we are NOT talking about posters that want a debate - the poster was not asking for an opinion on her views.

In this case the poster was trying to justify racism. There was no educating her. Apparently it's in our DNA.

Believe me I understand and agree with what you are saying but that absolutely was not the case in the instances we are discussing.

See, do we think littleprincess should be moded or told she's talking rubbish? Call me Mr Daily Mail but I think the latter.

Well ideally both.

I also find the people who want to let debate stand are often not part of the groups being attacked...although not always.

Okay John I go back to my original stance that you are trying to minimise the abuse some of us have received here tonight

My poor husband has gotten to the point now where he just accepts racism now as he's worn out. I'm not quite ready to take it lying down yet. Thankfully in real life I can be a lot more mean to racists than I can in here.

RedHare I am going to leave this thread now but you know where to find me

Samcro I think the question is whether racism or disablism can be better fought through debate or censorship - and where the line lies where censorship becomes the only resort. We obviously can't tolerate overt racist abuse but neither do we want a debate where no one can say anything even mildly objectionable - ,because there then wouldn't be a debate. A balance has to be struck.

No I'm not. I said people making comments about black people etc should be banned. However I don't think someone talking ignorant bolllocks like littleprincess should not. We should challenge those views.

I am saying over and over again that the comments you mention should have been banned. Why don't you believe me?

I had this issue yesterday. I was arguing with some feminists about pornography. Believe it or not I was taking an anti-porn stance inspired by Andrea Dworkin. I was unfailingly polite and conciliatory. Because my stance contradicted the liberal feminism they evidently preffered I was called a misogynist, a wanker and an abusive creep. Basically, they wanted a space where no one could interrogate any of their fundamental beliefs and any such interrogation was interpreted as a personal attack.

Now I don't particularly mind being called an abusive creep: I didn't want them to be moderated. But I do want debate. And while their are obvious lines that should not be crossed (and it sounds like the comments you mentioned crossed that line and SHOULD have been removed), we need to be careful that we do not allow bigoted people to go unchallenged within the context of a debate.

That is all I am saying.

Not saying you were being an abusive creep..but..pretty much noone on bring accused of that is going to see it and agree.

Because it feels like you are defending MNHQ decision not to delete the threads we are discussing. Your posts don't answer the OP.

No one said nothat to challenge is debate. Clearly you don't understand what I am trying to say and I don't get your position on this thread.

I shouldn't have to argue with anyone about overt racism being wrong. And here, right now, today we are not discussing debate or hypothetical situations.

I came here to support the OP not get into another disagreement

True, but all I can do is insist I wasn't. I used no abusive language - in fact no personal language at all, putting forward very theoretical arguments. Basically anyone who was at odds with their liberal values was interpreted as committing a violation. It was very odd. They just wanted a sort of group hug - which is fair enough but that should have been made clearer.

People who make derogatory comments about black people should be banned. People who say the Nazis had some good ideas should be banned. People who same gay men are being punished by God with Aids should be banned. People who say rape victims are asking for it should be banned.

But anyone who causes anyone any offence for any reason should not necessarily be banned or not involved in a debate - even if what they are saying is offensive. Because people can learn from debates -whereas if they're banned they will feel all the more justified in their views and slink off somewhere else.

But MN is a parenting website to support parents primarily, not a site designed to educate trolls and bigots to make the world a better place.

Maybe said parents don't want to spend time on a site heaving with bigotry . I certainly don't.

Generally speaking I do not like anything that restricts free speech so am with those who say idiot comments should be dealt with by debate and information. I am lucky enough to live a very comfortable life in a bit of a backwater so know very little of disability, racism, poverty, etc other than from the newspapers and tv. Over the years I have learned so much from posters on here and from debates that I know some people might have taken offence to.

There are posts at times that are overt racism, disablism, etc and, of course, they should be deleted but think education is a far better weapon against ignorance than suppression

Have you John experienced overt derogatory racism?

A valid question to try and understand your position?

I said it sounds like those posts should be banned if they are overtly racist.

As I say there is no scientific equation by which one comment can be tolerated but another not. It sounds like the comments you refer to are beyond the pale if they are making reference to skin colour.

All I was raising wad the question of where the line should be drawn. Should someone saying 'I'm sick of these bloody immigrants coming over here and taking all our jobs' be moderated or challenged? Of course there might be a Polish person on the thread who feels intimidated by comments like that - but then he or she might feel better if all the English people on the thread pull together and speak up for them and give this person what for. Do you see?

It's complicated.

I've experienced homophobia when I used to see a man.