to think this is where the NHS lets people down

[peppatax]

After a series of A&E visits with concerning acute symptoms, MIL needs to see a specialist and has a 4 month wait for an NHS appointment. She can however see the same consultant in August privately for about £250.

AIBU to think this is fundamentally wrong? Is it just that some people are doctors for the money rather than helping people? No wonder NHS waiting lists are so long if said consultant is doing private appointments as a priority.

It makes me lose sympathy for the poor junior doctors who after sticking out their training can become consultants and prioritise patients that can afford to pay.

Op you want the doctors to take on more hours under the nhs rather than offer private consults isn't it?

If the hospital were begging the consultant to run more clinics for them and he was saying 'Ahaha, never, I am going to spend that time seeing private patients for tons of cash!', possibly while twirling his mustachios, that would be morally dubious imo. Judging by the other replies here, that's very unlikely to be the case. The institution letting you down is the government in their refusal to properly tax the wealthy and thus fund the NHS properly.

The NHS will not pay the consultants to carry out additional clinics. NHS managers carefully consider the acceptable waiting lists and the funds available and pay for the sessions needed to meet government targets. This may mean that consultants have free time. They would not be able to use that time in NHS work.

Some do medical research and carry out clinical trials as part of that research (funded by grants of universities) others work part time, others provide extra clinics privately.

The answer is probably to do away with the two tier system by properly funding the NHS. I don't think this government are likely to do so.

True as op says that nhs care is not free - no charge at point of use (apart from dentistry, prescriptions, optometry), but taxpayers pay for it (even where some of it is funded by borrowing, taxpayers are paying the interest on the debt ). Some obviously pay in less than they get out, but afair a surprisingly high proportion of individuals are net 'payers' something like 40-50%? (Goes off to check figure)

Yes I agree some Consultant come in early and charge but this money is ploughed back into their NHS department. When we were referred to a fertility specialist he did just that. As we were mid 30's we didn't want to wait. Paid £80 I think which we were then able to claim back off a policy I had. The rest of the treatment would have been NHS. Win win.

So how many days a week do you work for free?

As for the old taxes argument, as a nation a very small proportion on your taxes go to the NHS compared to other EU countries.

I understand your anger, but the thing is, that they are paid by the NHS for say 4 days only, some do overtime some not, ( like firemen )
What they do on their days off privately is not connected to the work they do for the NHS, they could be working in a coffee shop, infuriating I know.
If you have to vent your anger and dismay, aim it at the NHS.
I personally don't agree with them working too much, so much so that they are tired when they are doing operations to the NHS patients.

If the NHS only fund x hours for a consultant it's not the consultants fault if the remaining spare free hours they have in any week they choose what to do with. It might be at home watching TV, mowing the grass or it might be private work. They are not taking x hours of work time away from the NHS.
Another way of looking at it is for everyone that can afford and chooses to pay its less people on the NHS waiting list in front of those who are too skint to go private and have no choice but to wait.

OP was this your first time to use the nhs? Have you no idea at all how the health system works?

As for the old taxes argument, as a nation a very small proportion on your taxes go to the NHS compared to other EU countries.

Compare what you take out to what you actually contribute its a great benefit.

The NHS is annoyingly slow for things that are unlikely to kill you.
However, they will swiftly leap into giving you treatment for things like leukemia that would cost about £250,000 in other countries.
Yes we all grumble about the NHS but it is bloody wonderful.

So correct me if I am wrong but it seems that we're no better than the system in the US where you get better care if you can afford the insurance?

Then if people don't have an issue with people paying and jumping the queue, then why don't we just create a tiered system then a la US?

I might be wrong here but these are contradictory arguments - be lucky it's free v. if you can afford it's better to pay

DearTeddyRobinson it is actually! Have always just gone private in the past...

I kind of get it, OP - if we hadn't had this system for 70 years we would think it was pretty odd.

Having said that, 4 months isn't too bad [misses point]

Every person who pays for a private appointment is removing themselves from the NHS queue and making it a little quicker for everyone behind them. They're not doing the private work during the hours the NHS is paying them for, and, as someone else stated, private treatment often funds other aspects of the NHS - it's a common setup for fertility clinics. Doctors incur huge loans while training, i can understand why they want the additional income. That's not to say that the NHS waiting lists are frustratingly long and shouldn't be addressed, but that isn't caused by doctors doing private work in their spare time.

There's no logic in your leap from the initial scenario to Is it just that some people are doctors for the money rather than helping people? - you have zero evidence that this is happening.

If the NHS is willing to pay for X specialist doctors to work Y hours a week then they can schedule X times Y hours worth of NHS appointments. The appointment slots are generally too short and always over-run so the doctors spend more hours than they are paid for but generally don't protest that much. There are also occasional emergencies that get slotted in where there isn't really time for them and the doctors do that too.

But even with all this, even if they end up working 70 hours a week for the NHS despite only being paid for 40 hours, they still have time that is their own. There are 168 hours a week after all. If they choose to earn a little more by doing a further 8 hours a week in private practice there is no reason at all to assume that this is because they are in it just "for the money rather than helping people".

They are not jumping the queue, there are two different queues.

Consultants do private work outside their contracted NHS hours, but they do not do a full week for the NHS and fit their private work in during weekends and evenings. They do not work full time for the NHS, more like 3 days on and 2 days for themselves, which is why waiting lists are so long.

OP you have no idea how the NHS works.

And yes, the NHS is much better than the US system imho; it is free at the point of delivery for a start, as you found out with your multiple visits to A+E.

Surely if you can pay and choose to do so, that frees up an appointment for someone who is less well off? So the more moral argument would seem to be that we should all pay when we can, in order to reduce the pressure on an overstretched service and reduce waiting times for poorer patients?

Personally, I don't want to be treated by someone who is stressed about affording to pay off his/her ex, or fund university for their kids or whatever. I'd much rather they did some extra clinics and solved the problem that way. The alternative would probably be a lot of doctors either leaving the NHS or leaving the country.

Also, every procedure, diagnosis or other treatment is experience and every experience contributes to skill levels. A more skilled doctor is a benefit to every single person they treat.

consultants on a standard NHS contract work 10 sessions. This is somewhere in the region of 40 hours a week on paper (probably 60ish in practice) though may be lower number of hours if some of them are worked overnight (eg in A&E). This is "full time". In the same way that many many nurses work "full time" by doing 3 long days, thereby compressing their 37.5 hours a week into 3 days.

As I have said above, private work is not allowed before the NHS gets first refusal on an 11th session.

Another high five for the NHS, In countries where you pay for everything they still have waiting lists, often equal to some NHS trusts in the uk. I have zero tolerance for anyone slagging off our wonderful free at point of entry healthcare system or the people at work within it.

DS was referred to a urologist for a bladder problem, our local waiting lists were long so the NHS paid for him to go to a private clinic for treatment, Spire Healthcare.

DD had a cyst removed privately, also Spire, her waiting time for treatment was longer than DS.

Neither condition was life threatening.

If there was no NHS and only private, the same amount of patients would be waiting to be seen so the lists would be just as long

I disagree with this. In a totally private system there will be effectively be no waiting. In a free market prices rise and fall to ensure supply and demand match.

I don't see paying for private care as "jumping the queue". I'm not taking an NHS patients place, I'm not pushing them to the back of the queue. Private practice is there in addition to NHS.

If you are arguing for more NHS money for more clinics and shorter wait times I'm with you and personally I'd be happier to pay additional taxes to support this.

However I do not agree that a HCP cannot have the freedom to choose to work privately if they so wish.

Private care can provide alternative treatments and medications not available on the NHS. I have paid several times for private treatment, both for reduced wait times and treatments not available on the NHS.

(In response to 'not working full time for the NHS')