to think this is where the NHS lets people down

[peppatax]

After a series of A&E visits with concerning acute symptoms, MIL needs to see a specialist and has a 4 month wait for an NHS appointment. She can however see the same consultant in August privately for about £250.

AIBU to think this is fundamentally wrong? Is it just that some people are doctors for the money rather than helping people? No wonder NHS waiting lists are so long if said consultant is doing private appointments as a priority.

It makes me lose sympathy for the poor junior doctors who after sticking out their training can become consultants and prioritise patients that can afford to pay.

[peppatax]

Would people rather pay then to get a better service? I guess that's why I'm bemused as being told to be thankful it's free but can't criticise the system!

[IloveAiredales]

I think it's about accepting the limitations of the Nhs, it's not a never ending source and cannot keep up with the demands placed upon it.
It's an amazing resource for us, A &E, cancer care, etc etc all free to Anyone who needs it. ( yes I know we pay tax) but it has limits on its capabilities....

[expatinscotland]

Would people rather pay then to get a better service?

Pay how? Via some paying to go private for faster (not necessarily any different or better) service, or everyone paying higher NI to fund this 'better service'? Because there's no such thing as a free lunch.

[MollyTwo]

Because there's no such thing as a free lunch.

True!

[EffieIsATrinket]

People pay so they have a shorter wait for diagnosis or specialist treatment. The vast majority of the time there is no difference in the treatment they end up receiving, just the timing. IVF is the obvious exception and there are probably a few others. Doctors here would not tend to offer risky experimental treatments to satisfy patient demand even if they have the money to pay. Personally I think this is a good thing.

NHS waiting lists are a political football. The drive to expedite cancer diagnosis has unfortunately rendered the waits for assessing conditions with less immediate urgency much much longer.

There isn't enough money in the pot.

[MammouthTask]

I find it quite strange that everyone agrees that the system is on its last leg but taht this answer isn't the improve the NHS, reorganise it or make it work better. It's been happy to see a patients going private to releive the burden wo an attempt to change the system....

[Iggi999]

The time you have to wait for should depend on the urgency of your medical issue, and nothing else.

[Horsemad]

I don't think most doctors are in it for the money; however I have heard of several who have opted to turn down extra work for the NHS as they earn a lot more from an agency.

It's their own off duty time, so I guess they can choose how to earn their money.

[Pestilence13610]

People pay to get a faster/ more convenient service.
You can criticise all you like (we have free speech).
If your MIL gets truly acute she will be admitted and treated promptly, another reason why waiting lists are long.

[Lorelei76]

Thing is OP, my parents have had loads of urgent health problems abd have been referred right away. When I broke my back the .nhs care was great, I'm including aftercare, follow up etc.

So what I'm hoping is that your mum is in a category where she can wait. There's a lot wrong with the nhs, much as I love it, but I'm wondering if this is an emergency, in which case, kick up a fuss, talk to your MP.

As for two tier system,much as I love the NHS I would not like to ban anyone from earning privately or being seen privately. It's just an unfortunate fact of life that more money often gets you a better service.

And yes to the poster who said there are separate queues. At least the private queue relieves pressure on the public queue.

[EffieIsATrinket]

But how should the system change? Ban consultants from doing private work? That really really would not help.

[peppatax]

So MIL needs to see a neurologist - that's a long wait to get your brain checked out! I agree that a wait should be expected for most non-acute services.

[Cosmiccreepers203]

peppatax I can assure you the the system in the US is a lot worse. My sister has paid well over $500,000 in top up fees for her cancer treatments. What it has mostly bought her is private rooms and nicer gowns. Oh, and an addiction to the pain killers pushed by a doctor who makes money off the back of prescribing them to his patients. A monetised health system is far too open to abuse. Once you start paying doctors per treatment, you incentivise treating things that don't need treatment for a lot more money than necessary. The US has consistently the worst outcomes vs investment in the world.

[FirstShinyRobe]

The NHS lets us all down by having layers and layers of ineffectual management, having pointless meeting after pointless meeting, shielding even more unproductive colleagues (often on multi-year secondments) whilst contracting external Consultants to do the same thing but for even more money. (watch how good they are at defending their roles as this thread moves on, though).

I completely understand your point, OP. It's baffling. There's a job to do, by skilled people, and only a certain number of hours in the week. That these are not available to the NHS is a disgrace. But if we (the country) won't pay for them, then what then?

There'd be more money in the kitty if the government stopped changing everything all the time, necessitating all the change mangers etc. And if many of those within management thought as taxpayers, rather than justifying their non-jobs.

[Lorelei76]

It is but it depends on the reason of course. If not done already, do ask GP if they can get her seen any faster, my
GP has fast tracked me for things before.
I guess you're on a cancellation list etc, that's always worth a try.

[Absofrigginlootly]

Not rtft but re: ....

It's not free though is it? Okay so we don't hand over any cash at point of treatment but it's not free, it's paid for by taxes etc.

And re: comments about the US system....

I currently live in the US with 'fully covered' health insurance (the most covered you can be) and it's still ridiculously expensive! It's also insanely frustrating because you have to fill out form after form after form after form.....

Paying taxes and being free at the point of service is SO much more cost effective.

I miss the NHS every single time I go to the Drs or take my DD to hers, or have to buy prescriptions etc.

Honestly, we should cherish and protect our NHS.

It is massively massively underfunded though and I do wish the government would increase taxes to try and bring it up to date with the costs of modern treatments etc

[BluePancakes]

But even that can't necessarily be calculated easily.

I have the BRCA1 gene mutation, which means I have a 40% chance of getting ovarian cancer (average woman's risk is less than 2%), and 85% chance of getting breast cancer (average woman's risk is 12%). I'm choosing to undergo risk-reducing surgery, to take my risk to near zero (there's always a risk that cancer has already developed at the cellular level, so never actually gets to zero), bur rightly, I'm behind in the queue, people who actually have various cancers. If I get cancer, I'll get higher priority in the queue; but there's also a chance that I may never get cancer. Calculating where to put me in the queue for surgery is difficult because I'm not 'urgent' at the moment, but paying for surgery for me now, will cost the NHS a helluva lot less, than surgery plus chemo plus other treatments if I do get cancer.

[PersianCatLady]

Honestly, we should cherish and protect our NHS.
Perhaps what we also need to do is to stop health tourists taking advantage of the NHS and perhaps there are some treatments that the NHS currently provides that it really shouldn't.

[SewSlapdash]

NHS clinics are massively oversubscribed because there's not enough resources. Yet the resources are working outside NHS contracts (so maybe working 2 days a week NHS and 3 days a week private).

No, the "resources" that is lacking is not doctors. There are, in general, enough of those. What there is not enough of is clinic space, hours in the day, X-ray and MRI machines, admin staff, porters, labs and lab equipment and, above all, money to day for all of the above.

Would people rather pay then to get a better service

Yes, obviously. Just as I pay more to eat at Cafe Rouge than I do to eat at McDonalds. And with healthcare, it's called going private.

You seem to have forgotten that anyone who goes private doesn't get a rebate on their NICs, they pay for private care out of already taxed income (plus VAT on top) and they leave a space free in the queue (the other queue, since it's not the same queue) for someone who needs or wants to use the NHS. So yes, they get a better service. But they effectively pay at least twice for it.

[peppatax]

People don't take enough responsibility for their own health though on the whole as there's a mentality that if there is something wrong then the NHS will fix them, like they have an entitlement to it. I think more restrictions about what is 'free' (or already 'paid for' is more accurate) and what will be charged for would be a step in the right direction.

[Cosmiccreepers203]

No, paid for services will discourage the poorer in society from seeking help for apparently minor complaints that are symptoms of serious illness. This argument has been done to death.
However, I wouldn't disagree with fine for people who misuse A&E.

[Lorelei76]

OP yes I would put restrictions on too but that wouldn't be popular

Also keep in mind the situation you describe wouldn't change on account of restrictions. In fact I'm not sure what your AIBU is....

[Lorelei76]

PS I don't think the issue is people not taking responsibility for their health either.

[Horsemad]

I agree with FirstShiny re (mis)management of the NHS.

My company has recently recruited an NHS Manager as our MD. OMG, if how our company is now being run is indicative of NHS management, I am appalled

It is truly depressing seeing what's happening to a great business and knowing it is happening on an even bigger scale in the NHS enrages me.

When is somebody going to stand up and start shouting about how poorly run it is and actually DO something about it?

It is an absolute disgrace.

[MammouthTask]

People don't take care about their health enough. That true but it has fuck all to do with the state of the NHS.
People in the uk are no less or no more looking after themselves than people in the US, Germany or Spain.
All these countries have different type of healthcare but countries like Spain have a much better healthcare system than we do (ask the British 'immigrants' there) with the same level of self care.
See what happens in the US wher you have to pay for your healthcare. People aren't less ill than in the uk despite 'incentives' from insurers (such as you will pay less if your BMI is under xx, go to the gym blabla)