Regarding MIL having DS

[KiwiLaura]

DS is 22 months, MIL has always had a strained relationship with DH (he had a terrible childhood) and they are distant. MIL has always been controlling (demanding he does and , laying on immense guilt, telling him she was ashamed of him for sending a relative a card one day late/sending a card from funkypigeon and not one bought in a shop/buying his grandmother posh chocolates for christmas as this wasn't a suitable gift, etc etc etc) prior to us having DS so I guess I expected some of this behaviour was to come.

Ever since DS was born MIL was pushing to have him on her own (as early as 2 months old - "well you have to leave him some time!!") but DS has always been nervous of her. She tends to be very pushy and forceful, always shunting him onto the next activity when he might want to just be left alone to play with the toy he currently has, "come on DS, let's do this now!" and basically pulling him about - no asking or encouraging, just picking him up and moving him along. She also seems to demand/expect him to give her kisses, affection, love her etc and is very dramatic ("he doesn't like me!") when he won't.

In the past 6 months or so I've started letting MIL (and her partner of 3 years who she insists we make DS call 'granddad') have him on her own at her house for a few hours. The problem is he NEVER wants to go and whenever he sees her (or her partner) he runs away screaming and tries to hide. It's to the point where I have to pretend I'm going in the car to their house too so that he'll let me put him in the car seat. MIL is obviously very upset about this but tries to reassure me constantly that as soon as they get there he's absolutely fine, never cries, etc. When I pick him up he has very visible tear stains on his face but I'm told he hasn't cried at all. He also cries with relief when he sees me and runs to me and won't leave my side until we go.

This alone is bad enough but now she's pushing us to let her partner have him on his own. No offence, but although we have fallen into this trap of calling him 'granddad' to DS ((part of my hesitance is because MIL has a long track record of getting bored in relationships and has had many, many partners)) I don't really regard him as anyone other than MIL's partner and I feel uncomfortable with him watching my son on his own. I don't really know him that well and.. What's the point? I agreed to let MIL's partner pick him up yesterday because he had his twin DSes (8 years old) with him and DS does like playing with them (MIL was at work but did come back, it worked out to about 2 hours DS was on his own with MIL's partner and his 2 DSes), but I'm worried because I've agreed to that that MIL will insist her partner has DS all the time from now on.

Sorry, this is all a bit rambly isn't it. Basically, I am at a point where I don't really want to do this anymore. The "handover" is always really shitty for me and I feel guilty for making DS stay with them when he clearly doesn't want to. But they make me feel like it's completely normal for DS to act this way and it's perfectly right he should stay with them, how else are they going to bond and form a relationship with DS blah blah blah (coming and spending time with him at our house when I'm there is not good enough apparently). Should I continue forcing DS to go to their house and if so, should I relent and agree that MIL's partner should be allowed to have DS on his own?

Think about the message that you are giving your son. That it is ok for him to be forced to spend time with adults he isn't comfortable with and to be made to do things he doesn't want to do. I am not saying that the MIL and 'grandad' are being abusive, but you are setting your DS up with the mindset that could lead him to accept abuse.

Yet another case of an overbearing person insisting on having a baby/toddler on her own. Why do some people have such an issue about having GC alone? Is it a control thing?

I agree with PP that if your husband merely maintains civility with her then why should your child be pushed into a scary/horrible/unwanted relationship with her. Stop leaving him there. This isn't new behaviour that has caught you all by surprise. It sounds like she has decades of form.

Surely your DH can understand that there are some people life who add value to relationships (your mother) and others who don't (his mother) and as a result, we can all choose who we spend time with. Don't get drawn into any more nonsense about your mum v his. It's not a competition, it's simply that DS is happy with one and not the other.

As for the weird requests for her partner to have DS - they are just requests and you get to decide if they happen. Trust your instincts and stick to your guns.

Just make sure you never need to ask MIL for childcare.

Children should love going to their grandparents.

They should be happy to go, excited to leave and not want to come home.

Your son is the opposite of all of those statements.

Stop letting him go and try again when he is older. He obviously does not like going and it's going to affect his mental health to be forced to do this every time.

Your MiL will sulk and rage but your ds is more important

Your poor DS. Why are you allowing this?

Stop. It's not worth it. You know your son doesn't enjoy it. And you're not happy.

She can say what she wants and stamp her feet if she likes. Say no.

Start putting your child first fgs!

Sorry to sound harsh but I can't believe you are putting your child through such a distressing experience because MIL demands it. Tell her it's not happening anymore and you won't continue to upset your child in this way. If she doesn't like it, tough tits. It's because she can't control it. It doesn't have to be fair and equal to your mum at all. My DCs see more of my family than ILs, they put more effort into the relationship.

It's also odd that she is insisting her partner have your child alone. On what planet would this even need to happen. YOU are the mother. YOU are in charge of your child. Do not defer this to your DH as you know he will not back you up so shut it down now. Your poor child.

Thank you all for your responses. It's honestly very helpful.

There's really been so much pressure from them and sometimes I look at DH and see he's just echoing whatever his DM has said to him, because she's put so much guilt onto him. DS has been seeing her as we both felt that she had mellowed as she's gotten older, which I suppose is very naive of us.

The comment of him not being a toy/doll particularly rings in my head as that is exactly how I have thought it seemed, just couldn't really put it into words. Sometimes I feel like he's treated as a doll, there to perform tricks for her so she can show off to her friends about what a clever DGS she has.

I don't want to completely stop a relationship (moreso for the sake of DH) but I won't let him go there anymore, or be taken out on trips or whatever unless he is 100% comfortable. DM feels they should come to our house to see him while I'm there as it's "on his turf" or that if they want to have him at theirs that I should go too. I just know that MIL will view that as a "step back" now so I suppose she'll do her usual act of crying down the phone to us and telling everyone how unreasonable we are.

Dear god stop sending him ! Poor baby

I think your DM's idea is a good one- have them to yours, but it is ok to stop this completely. It's clearly making your DS unhappy.

On the other hand- it's different, but my DH is NC with his parents and no way would either of us feel comfortable with them being on our home. This is our safe place, I think DH would feel awful if they came here. How would yours feel?

^in, not on.

Don't feel bad, OP. It sounds as if this woman is still grinding down a grown man in your DH, so she's a powerful force in your lives. He's lost the will to fight back and I can see how that means it's easier to give in to her demands about DS.

It's shows what a decent person you are that you don't want to go NC. Just ignore all the wailing and emotional blackmail (and possible 'illness') that follows your decision. I often see comments about FOG on MN and so [[http://outofthefog.website/toolbox-1/2015/11/17/fog-fear-obligation-guilt
this website]] may be of interest in terms of what your husband is dealing with.

DH usually moans whenever he has to see MIL anyway, but he'd never go NC because he has a much younger brother (15) who lives with MIL, and he'd feel too guilty about preventing her (or BIL) having a relationship with DS. But coming over to our house (or going to hers) isn't really a problem, it's more MIL who will view it this way, as she'll feel "watched" and DS will "prefer to play with me and not her anyway". I am happy to make her feel welcome despite history for the sake of giving DS the chance to know his grandmother, I suppose?

She always tries to push "he had a great time, he's done _ and and _" in my face everytime she's had him, and how can I really argue? I wasn't there and DS can't tell me. But when I have to force him to go and the look of pure relief on his face when I pick him up it's hard to believe her.

Stop putting your DS through this straight away! It's understandable that your DH won't man up as he is totally intimidated by her but you have no excuse. Your DS should be your priority not a manipulative GM.
Just say no! It's too upsetting for him, maybe in a few months etc. Make whatever excuse you like but don't take him to theirs again and never leave him with either of them. Let GM cry or throw whatever tantrum she likes. Stay calm and stand your ground. I have DGC btw.

Put it this way, if this was a nursery and DS was scared/upset to go every time and then tear-stained and relieved when you collected him, I'm sure you would stop him going. As you say, he can't tell you with words but he is letting you know how he feels.

Meridian, thank you for the link. I will have a read and probably show DH, as well as this thread, since I know he will probably buckle when I put my foot down. Hilariously, one of the examples listed has happened already: "A mother tells her adult children "You can't possibly care about me if you won't come to Christmas Dinner"".

"but I won't let him go there anymore, or be taken out on trips or whatever unless he is 100% comfortable. "

No-I think that you need to just stop letting him be there without you.

And you need to be able to step in if necessary.

Handy thing about going to them is you can leave when you want.

Perhaps you could also think about meeting somewhere for a couple of hrs?

"Handy thing about going to them is you can leave when you want."

That's a good point, actually. Thank you.

Your son was clearly showing discomfort and distress and you left him (under the guise that you would return to him shortly) there so that you and OH would have a quite life and now have her nag you?
You sold out your baby.
You are your sons advocate. You are supposed to protect him and speak for him.
You are not accountable to this woman or have to follow her demands. If she tries to force you cut her off. You don't have to respond and you damn well don't have to give in to her.
You feel shitty?! Imagine how the baby with no choice feels.
You need to sit down with OH and explain to him that this is all stopping now. He will now be dealing with all communication from her and you will only see her in a neutral location where he must come as well.

Id just really casually say that you're going to knock the visits on the head for the time being because your son is clearly distressed and you don't want it to become a 'thing' for him. Say you'll visit with him.

If she moans then just tell her you're thinking of your son because he's only young and there's no need to upset him. Then just keep repeating. If she starts to cause a massive fuss then tell her that if this is how she behaves then you can see why your son doesn't want to spend his time with her.

She sounds like a massive bellend tbh.

Sometimes I feel like he's treated as a doll, there to perform tricks for her so she can show off to her friends about what a clever DGS she has.

You nailed it. BunnyChops post is a wise one; it's about starting from the perspective that MiL is not thinking or processing the same way as you do and trying to see the world from her perspective. Behaviour is always about meeting needs. This probably isn't happening intentionally or with any malice, this is just how the world is in her head.

You've explained very clearly:

• She believes that her feeling upset should be more important to you than your wishes, feelings, concerns and requests about what she would like to do with your son at the moment.
• When upset she can spill those feelings out on others such as crying down the phone. Her spilling those feelings will often end in people feeling guilty and wanting to escape the pressure by giving her what she wants because she is so uncomfortable to deal with when she's not being kept happy. (Hi DH.)
• She believes her feelings are more important to recognise and protect than other people's, and that they should rightfully be prioritised by others too as more important than theirs. (I'm so upset you won't let me do such and such)
• The truth to her is the comfortable-for-her version of what happened. (No he hasn't been crying, those aren't tear tracks, and I can't see anything.)
• She isn't able to read or prioritise DS's body language, facial expressions or vocalisations as cues to adapt what she is doing or wants to happen in this moment. Her attention is on her own perspective and whether it's giving her what she needs.

Essentially you already know she's not able to put DS's communications and feelings ahead of her own, and that to me is the cut off point for unsupervised care of a young child. DS is also going to get older, very soon he will be less co operative, more verbal and more openly challenging when he does not like what is happening to him.... and DH can probably tell you what she does to manage and overcome that.

I'd agree that the visits need to stop.

Your DS is visibly upset about being there, so something is happening that he doesn't like.

And your DP needs to understand that fairness doesn't actually come into this. It's wholly on what is in the child's best interests, and forcing him to go somewhere that is making him so unhappy is not in his interests.

So what if your DM sees/has your DS more? He's happy to be with her, so clearly she's nurtured a relationship, putting his needs above her own.

And I would be interested in why MIL is insistent on you allowing her partner to have sole care. That's an odd one.

I know how hard it is to stand up to a parent who does the crying thing (my MIL does it), BUT remind yourself that an adult crying down the phone because she can't get her way is really pathetic.

It's just a ruse, it makes her look like a toddler, and you don't have to pay attention to it. You can hang up, even laugh at her and ask why she's acting like a two year old. She'll probably then be all righteous indignation, but really, who the hell acts like that?

Are you for real?? You know this woman was a terrible parent, you barely know the partner, your DS cries and screams and is scared of her and yet you still let her look after him?? What the actual fuck?

You need to buck the fuck up and protect your son.

I'm glad you are going to put a stop to these visits.

I don't understand why you've put him through this misery for so long?