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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think boys should be able to do Brownies?

559 replies

PrinceCharming7 · 15/07/2016 20:14

I'm a bit confused why they don't? Girls are allowed to do Scouts/Cubs/Beavers, so why can't boys do brownies?

OP posts:
MillicentMargaretAmanda · 16/07/2016 09:23

If that is the case, why does Guiding have the same number of members pulling from only half the population?
Scouting is great. So is Guiding. I've still not identified what your problem with it is?

BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 09:24

Just checking- people do know that Scouts and Guides is not just a UK thing?

2StripedSocks · 16/07/2016 09:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2StripedSocks · 16/07/2016 09:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoupDragon · 16/07/2016 09:30

at 3 places I was told they don't accept girls

I suspect that they are not allowed to do this and if you complained they would have to admit a girl.

BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 09:31

They are devinitely not allowed to do that.

MangoMoon · 16/07/2016 09:40

Rather than mothers of boys clutching their pearl at the thought of their Princes being anything other than completely wonderful, how about you realise that toxic masculinity is drilled into males from a very early age, and in spaces with girls this does have an affect? And rather than sulk about people's valid views of girl spaces, help to erase that toxic masculinity which will negatively affect your sons?

Haha!

And that sort of hysterical bollocks is why a lot of people don't take feminists seriously, and think we're a load of man-hating, shrill twats.

Sunnymeg · 16/07/2016 09:42

I know a Brown Owl who was asked to step down because her son attended the meetings. She reasonably thought he could attend and save her having to organise a babysitter. That proved not to be the case.

BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 09:44

"I know a Brown Owl who was asked to step down because her son attended the meetings. She reasonably thought he could attend and save her having to organise a babysitter. That proved not to be the case."

Asked by who? How old was he?

MangoMoon · 16/07/2016 09:45

And fwiw, even though I think the man-hating stuff is a lot of shit, I do agree that girls benefit hugely from girl-only clubs & activities and it would be a crying shame for that to change.

BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 09:47

[sigh]

Man- hating. How unoriginal.

WankersHacksandThieves · 16/07/2016 09:50

Echt, yes I do. I know why girls were allowed to come into scouts because of declining numbers nationally but that's never been the situation in our area. Scout places at beaver and cub level have always had a wait list. Parents of girls can put there child down for both and take what place comes up first this means that boys have longer to wait.

As I've said , I don't disagree with the decision taken by scouts, it is what it is. I just get hacked off with people saying that boys live in the land of milk and honey with endless opportunity and it simply is not the case ime.

honeyandmarmitesandwiches · 16/07/2016 09:50

Haven't rtft, just first few pages but I wanted to chip in and say I agree that in our society it's important and incredibly positive to have girl only spaces, and the feedback from girlguiding young members underlines that. Imo their voices matter more in this instance than situations where a boy might be friends with girls or want to do crafts (not that brownies only do crafts) and feel left out.
I do sympathise with boys in that situation because they suffer from society's expectations of them and probably don't understand why they're being excluded from something they may like to do. But there are other options available, parents with a child in that situation could step up and maybe start a mixed sex crafting group, rather than taking away something that plays an important role in a lot of girls' lives. Brownies is just a couple of hours out of a week, let girls have something that is for them alone. There is plenty of evidence that this has a great impact on their mental health, confidence and willingness to try things that aren't seen as girly. Male privilege exists, it isn't demonising the male sex to say that. It's a fact of life unfortunately and I for one am hugely thankful for the existence of girlguiding and what they do to help counter that for young girls growing up.

Sunnymeg · 16/07/2016 09:51

She was asked to step down by the Division Commissioner after referral to Head Office.

NattyTile · 16/07/2016 09:51

I have been a Guider and a Scouter, and I was involved with both organisations when the decision was made for Scouting to go mixed.

I was also a Venture Scout, rather than a Ranger Guide (neither exist now, different names and different age ranges too.

As numerous others have stated, the decision to go mixed for all ages not just over 15s was taken because numbers weren't great, especially in rural areas.

Fwiw our local units weren't happy and elected to stay all boys for as long as they could - initially it was down to individual scouting groups to make the decision, but all new groups had to be mixed.

GirlGuidingUK and WAGGGS (international association) consulted at the time and repeatedly since as to whether they should stay all girls or go mixed. And every time, the members - children and leaders - have resoundingly agreed that it must stay all female.

Like a pp I've seen girls grow down when they've been on camp for a few days. Forget the stresses of makeup and hair and looking good, and just get on with fire lighting, scrubbing blackened pans, wading through mud, getting messy, stinking yo high heaven, and yes, sitting around crafting and singing and generally being themselves without needing to look cool.

And then I've seen those same girls when we've camped on Scout sites rather than Guide ones. And nice seen them spot the boys, and suddenly showers have been taking 30 minutes not three, and they don't want to get dirty, and oh they can't forage for wood because they might get sweaty. We took the decision only to use Guiding sites after that.

We do have girls in the unit who would never be allowed to attend if boys were allowed in. That isn't because we as leaders think there is anything inherently dangerous about the boys who might join, but because the girls belong to families who will not allow their girls to mix with boys. Is it better, under those circumstances, to continue to be a place where those girls can mix with girls and women who have different views to their parents, or should we take what may well be the only activity they can do which is unconnected to religion away from them?

It does seem silly, maybe, when we are talking about very young prepubertal children. But, if you decide boys can join rainbows, do you then kick them out when they reach brownie age? Or can they stay just until Guides?

I'm sorry your son is disappointed. And I hope you can find him an activity he will enjoy. FWIW as others have said, if there really isn't space in your local scouting group, volunteering yourself is the most effective way to jump the waiting list. We're always looking for more volunteers, and it doesn't have to be during the meeting - treasurers, fundraisers, loads of admin; there's so much unseen which goes towards providing the evening meetings and other activities.

Having an all girls space was so important for me when I was going through school in a not terribly nice mixed comp. I am not a Guider any more, but I'll fight strongly for the right of GirlGuidingUK to stay a movement for Girls and Women only.

Sunnymeg · 16/07/2016 09:52

Oh and he was Brownie age and went to the same primary as a lot of the girls

WankersHacksandThieves · 16/07/2016 09:53

their

NattyTile · 16/07/2016 09:55

Sunny met that's a shame; one of our local brownie groups had a single parent brown owl - the parents of the brownies had a rota to babysit for her as none of them wanted to take on the role themselves but many of them could take her children for a couple of hours once or twice a term.

NattyTile · 16/07/2016 09:56

*Sunnymeg

budgiegirl · 16/07/2016 10:05

I think there are many areas where the scouts is all boys. Where I am there was a discussion between the leaders of both organisation and we chose to keep it single sex. I think it is more common where there are thriving Brownie / Guide groups that do a range of activities and don't just do crafts

at 3 places I was told they don't accept girls

This just isn't allowed anymore (with some rare exceptions). It's completely against the scouting policies -

"All Scout Groups, Explorer Scout Units and Scout Networks are required to be open to male and female membership except in special situations. Single sex Sections may exist within a Scout Group provided that membership is available for both sexes across all Sections within that Group. i. Special situations are defined as being where: • there are cultural or religious requirements for single sex working; • Scouting is offered in a single sex institution (e.g. school, young offenders institute) through a closed Scout Group; • a specialist single sex provision is required to meet a clearly identified educational need (e.g. Scouting for young mothers)"

It may well be that there are scout groups that have no girls because none have applied to join, but, for the most part, they are not allowed to refuse to take girls.

MangoMoon · 16/07/2016 10:09

Man- hating. How unoriginal.

YY Bertrand, it is.

I don't know why people insist on being so antagonistic about boys tbh.

echt · 16/07/2016 10:19

I don't know why people insist on being so antagonistic about boys tbh.

Where is your evidence for this on this thread?

BertrandRussell · 16/07/2016 10:26

"n- hating. How unoriginal.

YY Bertrand, it is.

I don't know why people insist on being so antagonistic about boys tbh."

Please show me where this has happened.
"Toxic masculinity" is bad for boys as well as girls. In fact especially boys.

witsender · 16/07/2016 10:26

People aren't being antagonistic about boys. But about male privilege and the fact that it exists, and can pervade even the youngest of groups.

00100001 · 16/07/2016 10:30

yy natty

IT guiding that wants to keep it girls only, the only people who want boys in it don't understand the space the girls have or the ethos of Girlguiding!

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