"I could never send my dcs to grammar school....

[winkywinkola]

...because I think it's unfair on all those children who can't get in because they couldn't afford tutoring for 11+. But I will send them to prep and boarding school."

I was a bit perplexed to hear this from a mum at the school gate. Aibu?

mint She doesn't seem inclined to justify her reasons for actually, you know, sending her own child to a grammar when it wasn't compulsory...funny that

Quite was to Carl. I do not wish to be associated with the opinions stated by Queen or Julip on this thread.

I live in an area with no comprehensive schools. Just grammars and secondary moderns. So I actually had no choice as to where to send my children.
But I saw-and am seeing- how socially divisive a wholly selective system is.

I can see that there is an argument-although I do not agree with it- for separate schools for the most able 2%.but there is no good reason to segregate the top 23%. The labeling children as successes or failures at 10 is iniquitous.

I think that's fair enough as a position mrshathaway.

But it has to come with a dollop of truth on the side plate.

Posters pretending that it has no impact on the highly able ( particularly the able DC of the less well heeled) I can take less seriously.

"But the endless pretence that high ability DC do well anywhere is just that. There wouldn't be so much time spent on widening access schemes by universities if it were true. There would not need to be contextual offers. There would not need to be so much outreach work."

I don't think anyone would pretend that high ability children do well anywhere. But well supported high ability children do. And the grammar school system is particularly unhelpful to high ability children from disadvantaged and unsupportive backgrounds. The contextual offers and so on are there in attempt to "catch" the bright but unsupported.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10117739/Expectations-of-children-are-too-low-in-comprehensive-schools-says-Ofsted.html

In a damning report, Ofsted warned that more than 65,000 of England’s most able schoolchildren ware falling far short of their potential in state schools.

Sir Michael Wilshaw, the chief inspector, said teachers are "teaching to the middle" of the class, rather than helping the most and least able. Schools are also given "false incentives", like getting pupils to attain results in the A* to C band, he said.

"We're in a situation in this country where many more youngsters are going from the independent sector and grammar schools to the top universities than those in the comprehensive schools - double the number," he said.

"We've got to do something about that. I'm passionate about comprehensive, non-selective schools in the state sector doing as well as the selective system."

Just a third of pupils considered high-fliers at the age of 11 gained A grades in English and maths after being taught in state comprehensives. This compared with around 60 per cent of those sent to academically-selective grammar schools, it emerged.

The watchdog said it was “shocking” that large numbers of teachers had “not even identified who their most able pupils were”.

According to figures, bright children were well taught in just a fifth of mixed-ability lessons observed by inspectors, even though they were extensively employed by schools.

The report also said that most schools lacked the expertise to help children apply to leading Russell Group universities, with some teachers even claiming it was not “appropriate to push students towards such universities”.

And the grammar school system is particularly unhelpful to high ability children from disadvantaged and unsupportive backgrounds

How so? I have personally been supported as were my class mates.

Because they don't get in.

She doesn't seem inclined to justify her reasons for actually, you know, sending her own child to a grammar when it wasn't compulsory...funny that

Maqueen with this particular poster its a MO. Loves asking questions, and demanding answers, but not to good at either responding or answering herself.

They dont get in because the primary school system in most areas is not there to help them get in so what does anyone expect?

Happy to respon. Just not to MaQueen. I have already said I am not preepared to engage with because I find her views repellant.

"They dont get in because the primary school system in most areas is not there to help them get in so what does anyone expect?"

They don't get in because primary schools ^are not allowed to help them" and their parents are unable/unwilling to help them

I don't blame anyone except perhaps government ministers for making a choice for their own children that appears to contradict their principles, because I don't think most people hold any principles above their children's well-being.

Being so anti-selection you'd move counties ... IMHO that's a position reserved for teachers who don't want to teach in selective schools and I'd think it pretty extreme for other parents.

The Sutton Trust has done a report on this and it recommends they do more to help them.

www.suttontrust.com/researcharchive/poor-grammar-entry-grammar-schools-disadvantaged-pupils-england/

You narrow the definition of help down to giving them test papers.

I say help is far more holistic and probably earlier on. Even inviting parents back to do talks on what to do would be an enormous help.

"Improved primary school teacher awareness is seen by some grammar school head teachers as important, with primary teachers supporting high achieving disadvantaged pupils in their applications and appeals

Some grammar schools say that they are already undertaking activities designed to improve outreach and to prepare higher achieving students in primary schools with targeted lessons. They are also working to overcome perceptions that they are ‘posh’ or ‘elitist’.

There should be a minimum of ten hours test preparation support provided on a free or subsidised basis to all potential grammar school applicants to help level the playing field.

ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC.

for making a choice for their own children that appears to contradict their principles, because I don't think most people hold any principles above their children's well-being

Ha, well from a poster who always comes onto these threads I have only ever heard negative comments for those who want to send their DC to grammar so I am astounded that this poster who has posted novels on the subject has herself availed herself of, the Grammar System

i thought they were the devils worl

I don't disagree. But as things stand primary schools are not allowed to help. And the fact remains that the well supported children will get the free help and
everything they get at home.

Mint julep if you live in a wholly selective area you have no choice.

Primary schools could do more to encourage their high achieving children to apply to grammar schools in selective areas, and develop partnerships with grammar schools.

A common concern in the research was the extent to which primary schools encouraged pupils who are achieving highly at Key Stage 2 to apply to a grammar school, particularly those from low and middle income homes. Primary schools could support pupils who can succeed in local grammar schools to apply, and reassure parents where they may have misconceptions about the process. Grammar schools could improve their existing links – some of which are good – with primary schools, helping provide courses for high achieving students, especially those entitled to the Pupil Premium, so that stronger links are built.

How so?

Do they force you to send DC to Grammar school, do tell.

Is it by twisting your arm, or gun to your head?

My niece is very bright and would almost certainly have passed the exam to grammar school.

Unfortunately, they changed the system. The exam used to be held in the primary schools over two mornings and all those who wanted to be considered for a place sat the exam.

Now, you have to go into the school one Saturday and have an exam and assessment, just as the private schools do.

My neice's primary failed to inform parents of this new policy and so my neice and her classmates missed the exam.

Still, that's one less working class housing estate primary to spoil their intake

Julip please stop. You're acting like the twats in primary appeal threads who say "just give up your job and HE", who refuse to see the real-world bars to theoretical possibilities.

In a selective area you use the selective schools or opt out of state education. The latter isn't a realistic option for everyone.

Yy Tanith - the date we have to work towards is early enough in Y5 that DS will still be nine. It's also before the local schools have their open days.

Hope they don't put it any earlier.

"Do they force you to send DC to Grammar school, do tell"

No. It was, unfortunately, the school with the top sets in it.

BR of course you had a choice. You could have chosen to not send your DD to the grammar, and sent her to the secondary modern instead...what with you being so very, very anti grammar, and everything.

But you chose to send her to the grammar, why...?

And saying you're not replying to me because you find my attitude 'repellent' is just desperate evasion and very transparent. Especially, as on this very thread you have openly admitted to admiring my POV when it comes to why I want my DDs at a grammar.

You're not replying to my question purely because you don't have a leg to stand on, and we both know it.

Froth and pontificate and obfuscate all you like, but you chose to send your DD to a grammar (thereby 'using tax money to punish other children') when she could simply have gone to the secondary modern instead, even though she passed the 11+.

I agree that most parents wouldn't put their child's wellbeing above their own principles. But in that instance they shouldn't spend copious amounts of time deriding and harranguing other posters for wanting the same style education for their child, as the derisive posters has chosen for their child.

And they did choose. No rule to say that just because a child had passed the 11+ that they have to only go to the grammar school.

Because it makes them look more than a bit silly.