Cowboys and Indians.....offensive?

[mrgrouper]

Yesterday was the teachers strike, so I took my son to Gulliver's World in Warrington. Gulliver's world has hardly been updated since the 1980s, however I like this because it has a retro feel to it and reminds me of when I went there as a child. Most of the signage is from the eighties.
Anyhow there was a couple there who were clearly unimpressed by its dated appearance. We were in the Wild West part of the park and there is a large sign that says Cowboys and Indians. The woman started pointing and said she could not believe in 2016 they would have such a politically incorrect sign.
I was a bit surprised. Is Cowboys and Indians now racist and offensive? It is the first I have heard of this.

Sorry, I was so gobsmacked by Page 1 that I forgot there were more pages.

Whilst the display sounds ghastly I would point that the organisation AIM (American Indian Movement) is a radical campaigning, civil rights organisation which prefers "American Indian" to Native American"

A Brief Histry of AIM
www.aimovement.org/ggc/history.html

I think First Nations is often the preferred term over Native American.

I honestly agree thefit I doesn't make it right. I've never heard of the term 'gook' though, although I would assume it's derogatory.

Regarding Eskimo and canibalism, I've genuinly never ever heard of the two together. I've just had a quick Google and seen some old writings. I'm a reader and can say I've never come across that, maybe as I've never really looked in to the term Eskimo, although I was aware in the past few years it wasn't to be used. There was no teaching in my schooling about this at all.

Regarding the book I have, it's a children's nursary rhyme book. I'm not saying it's right that's it's in there but because it is people still use that term with out realising how offensive it is. Please do not get arsey with me, show me where I have said its ok?

Evans you and your family others may know but it's not as widely spread as people expect.

Yes I agree with mistress and umbongo

And now I'm off to bed.

I'm sorry, but to suggest that forgetting the Holcaust because it was a long time ago and therefore that's perfectly reasonable is absolutely horrifying. I'm 44. I was taught neither the Holocaust (no 20th century history at all) or any American history, though I did History for O and A Level. That is absolutely no bloody excuse not to know of these things, it just isn't.

There are plenty of things that I don't know that I should, but I don't make excuses for not knowing them. I found out just the other day that Gibraltar is not an island, from a MN thread in fact. Did I excuse myself for not knowing that? Wasn't ever taught it in school? No, I was bloody embarrassed! How can I have got to my age without knowing that? No excuse, no good reason.

I honestly think that as a society the British celebrate ignorance over knowledge, time and again. It's still not cool to actually know stuff and to celebrate learning. And it's got nothing to do with being working class or middle class, well educated or not - back in the day working men's clubs would regularly have lectures and talks for the workers and they were well attended. But somewhere along the line in the 20th century that pleasure in acquiring knowledge, regardless of your background or status, died.

Perhaps someone who knows more about social history than I do (and should do!) could enlighten me?

AIM certainly recognized the significance of British history in the fortunes of American Indians; one of its first major protests was organized by Russell Means, quoted in an earlier post, as a takeover on Thanksgiving Day 1970 of the Mayflower II (a replica of the original). Re-enactors dressed as Puritans were confronted by AIM protestors who seized the ship.

*Why were they called Indians?

We never learnt*

Already mentioned, I know, but Columbus was a total dick.

This thread shows how poor our education is in the UK. That people can be so ignorant as not to know about native Americans is jaw dropping

We need to challenge ignorance more than ever now.

*The Australian stolen generation seems more 'close' to me (if that's the right word) as it was the British involved and the British influence. I've also spent a lot more time in Australia.

Films like Rabbit Proof fence and Australia were eye opening and this was very recent *

It was very much the British involved in the destruction of Native American tribes as well. (Just an FYI but for Canadians they prefer Native American, First Nations or aboriginal as a collective term rather than American Indians, that's a USA thing). My mothers people (Mi'kmaq) were actually brought to Newfoundland to help the English exterminate the native tribe (Beothuk, the last one died in the mid-1800's). My grandmother went to a "reservation school" where she was beaten if she spoke Mi'kmaq (this was in Newfoundland in the 1930's so still British property and the schools were run by British missionaries).

While I understand not knowing little details like that, I am a bit shocked that people are so unaware of the history of British colonization in North America :/

Another little tidbit, the going price for an "Indian scalp" in the British run city of Halifax, Nova Scotia in the early 1800's was 10 shillings.

I am a bit shocked that people are so unaware of the history of British colonization in North America

I only know a bit - and I do know that it was more than the British as the French and Spanish were involved as well.

My only real history teaching of Canada was Wolfe at Quebec - and I have no doubt that I was taught that from the 'Empire' perspective - as I was taught about Gordon at Khartoum.

there are Disney films about! We all know that Disney has sanitised or sanitises it's movies. Most people know Pocahontas (real name matoaka ) as a coming of age young woman who fell in love with young English dude named John smith. When in actual fact she was 11.

See, this is why this thread is so interesting. I'm finding posters like quencher great as it's all news to me!
Much prefer educating posters as opposed to "OMG, are you stupid, how did you not know THAT?!" posters.
I'm honestly not thick, despite what this thread may be portraying me as
I've had a full education, just never been taught in depth about Cowboys/Indians.
I've also never watched Pocahontas as I've not watched Disney films since becoming an adult.
I could tell you about the older ones I watched as a child such as Dumbo and Snow White, but wouldn't have a clue about Pocahontas and its origins as never seen it.
11? Ugh.

The French and Spanish were involved, certainly not just the British, but, at least in Canada the British involvement was huge and lasted until after WWII. I was generally taught British history and know all about the UK's involvement in India and Africa as well as actual British history (war of the roses and all that).

John Smith and the 11 year old Pochahontas probably didn't have a romantic relationship. that's Disney

I don't know much about Canadian history - in fact, I probably know a lot more about Australian and New Zealand history.

I don't know why that it is. Maybe there is just some unconscious bias I have? I only know the bare minimum of British history when it comes to the colonies (as there is so much to learn) - and I am sure I would be even more shocked about some of the things that happened in the past.

No she didn't have a relationship with John Smith. She married a man called John Rolfe, had a son and died when she was only 22.

John Smith and the 11 year old Pochahontas probably didn't have a romantic relationship. grin that's Disney

Just re-read the original post, and yup, you're right. I obviously need to read up on this whole topic. I'm making myself look a right plonker.

This thread shows how poor our education is in the UK.

I'm genuinely surprised that any adults could not know the history behind the game "Cowboys and/versus Indians". Very surprised

Why? Not everyone was taught it at school. I consider myself well educated, but this thread is a history lesson to me

The lack of knowledge about this has nothing to do with what is taught in schools and everything to do with a lack of general knowledge. General knowledge is acquired by taking an Interest in the world around you. Schools can't cover everything. I wasn't taught any of this in school.

I'm just amazed The Washington Redskins continue to use that name.

You wont find this being widely taught in schools as is a huge embarrassment in what us 'civilised' lot made millions of people's endure. Who is going to admit what this great empire did and is still doing.

There would have to to be a lot of apologies.

The lack of knowledge about this has nothing to do with what is taught in schools and everything to do with a lack of general knowledge. General knowledge is acquired by taking an Interest in the world around you. Schools can't cover everything. I wasn't taught any of this in school.

This. Just because you weren't spoonfed it in school, doesn't mean you can't find it out yourself. For fuck's sake, thanks to the internet everyone on this thread has at their finger tips a wealth of knowledge and resources freely available to them in an instant in a way that would have been unfathomable even 25 years ago. I'd be bloody ashamed to have such a yawning gap in my awareness of the world.

This. Just because you weren't spoonfed it in school, doesn't mean you can't find it out yourself. For fuck's sake, thanks to the internet everyone on this thread has at their finger tips a wealth of knowledge and resources freely available to them in an instant in a way that would have been unfathomable even 25 years ago

People do find things out for themselves though, and learn and better themselves. Just because they haven't got round to reading up on a topic you're 'clearly' well read up on, does that mean they automatically know Jack Shit and therefore need a sad head shake and "oh, they should know better?"
I've been educated to university level. I ditched history at age 13 though when we took our GCSE options and had to choose between Geography and History.
So I only know what I was taught up until then at school. Or at least I would have only known that if I hadn't have self taught myself things as well.
As I said, Rosa Parks, apartheid, slavery, just a few examples.
School tended to focus on the things relevant to local history. American history never really touched in any depth.
So lots of Viking invasions, and the second world war is what I can remember from school days.
It's not possible to read up on everything, despite Google. So don't be so bloody patronising. I bet I know lots of things you don't.
Although I wouldn't dream of saying you have a yawning gap of awareness just because you knew less.
Educate instead of patronise. T'is the way forward.

Sam I appreciate that this will come across as patronising, intellectual snobbery or whatever, but this isn't some arcane piece of information hidden away on some obscure corner of the internet, it is basic stuff that I (clearly wrongly) thought any mildly curious adult would be aware of. Again I don't really want to come across as a know all, but I am genuinely shocked.

The Washington Redskins refusal to change their name is offensive to me.

The National Collegiate Athletic Association has taken positions on similar issues with university athletic teams. But the Florida State Seminoles are an exception.

www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/sports/florida-state-can-keep-its-seminoles.html?_r=0

www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/florida-states-unusual-bond-with-seminole-tribe-puts-mascot-debate-in-a-different-light/2014/12/29/5386841a-8eea-11e4-ba53-a477d66580ed_story.html

There are many religious and ethnic references for US athletic teams by the way. We have Fighting Scots, Highlanders, Crusaders, and my personal favorite, the University of Pennsylvania Quakers (the Fighting Quakers, anyone?)

I think what I am struggling with on this thread is the idea that people are saying that they are educated to a high level but also saying that they don't know about something "because they weren't taught about it in school" Surely most of us have read and watched and heard about a million times more things than the very specific,narrow band of things taught at school?

If you said to a reasonably well educated person "Have you heard of Shakespeare?"!you'd surely be a bit surprised if they said "No, I didn't do him at school"

Oh well I'm offensive then as I played Cowboys and Indians loads as a kid and sometimes still do 😳 I'm always the Indian though as I love the bow and arrow and my DP is a cowboy in his sexy cowboy boots .