More of a WWYD - unbelievably selfish 6yr old

[PetitPoisPants]

I'm out of my depth with my 6 year old dd behaviour and really need some advice

I love her to bits but she is becoming very selfish and rude and displaying "unlikeable" behaviour . I don't know how to handle it .

I know she sees my frustration when she acts this way and I try to praise even the tiniest good thing she does , but it's never enough for her - she always wants more . Of everything !

Examples :
I had surgery last week and I use crutches at the minute . On the way to school today I asked her to carry her own bag (I usually do it as she likes to run) . She huffed and puffed , spoke to me rudely , complained the whole short walk there and asked why she had to do everything

I explained that as I was poorly at the minute, she needed to help .

She has a real problem with sharing - toys and food mainly . Her little sister always offers her food but dd1 refuses to do the same .

If her sister comes out of school with a biscuit she's baked DD1 is in her face telling her if she doesn't half it she won't ever be her friend again

As dd1 won't share , it got to the point I told dd2 not to bother sharing either .

Both girls had a packet of crisps - we have been trying to encourage dd1 to offer things to other people (dd2 does this naturally) . Dd1 offered her sister and her dad a crisp - both took one .

Dd2 then offered dd1 a crisp - who sneakily took two then denied it and finally admitted she did because she had "lost two" and it wasn't fair !

She's starting to lie about silly things .

I thought she might need some one to one attention . Dd1 loves colouring. I told her I was ordering myself some adult colouring books and I'd love it if we could colour them in together . She was pleased - until she asked if the colouring books could be both of ours .

I explained they were mine but I'd love to share them with her and she can help me anytime . No. She wasn't happy - she wanted them to be hers too.

She also complained that I'm important and everyone is looking after me just because I've had surgery .

Her behaviour is exasperating and it goes on and on and on over every little thing .

Please help !

I'd stop going on about them sharing if it were me- I don't think you can teach her the joy of sharing by forcing her to, there isn't any joy in that for her.

The colouring books are a case in point. She wanted to share with you and you WOULDNT SHARE WITH HER. So you aren't leading by example. And how would you like it if someone had come along and forced you to share ownership of them and said it was selfish not to?

Things have to be freely given for there to be any joy in it for the giver.

Themirror did you actually read my post?

I did offer to share them with her ! I made a specific point of telling her I would love her to help me anytime etc .

The fact is - she wanted them to be hers - she doesn't seem to grasp that something can belong to someone else without her having to own it herself .

You're right - things do have to be given freely for there to be joy out of it - the issue is , she completely refuses to share anything - but expects others to share with her .

Do you really think me not addressing it will turn her in to a well rounded caring person? Frankly , I think kids who can't / won't share can be brattish and it's not a nice trait .

And I don't force her to share everything - she has her own things just for her .

Surely it is just nice manners to offer people the odd sweet , or to join in a nice game etc.

Or is it every kid for themselves these days ?

I think you're making life very stressful for yourself.

Sometimes, as parents, we can get caught up in wanting DCs to act a certain way and get into a battle of wills but that is usually counter-productive. Yy you have to have absolute standards for behaviour but it will be much easier if you can bring your DD with you to a place where she wants to behave than one where you are constantly trying to enforce your will. When you are at the stage of counting how many crisps a DC eats from which packet, I think it's time to take a step back.

The point about the colouring books is interesting. From here, it looks like she wanted them to belong to both of you but you were very insistent they were your's. It wouldn't have cost or lost you anything to show her the kindness of letting the colouring book belong to both of you. But for some reason it was more important for you to turn it into a lesson about sharing (whilst you didn't actually share ownership).

How much time have you spent reassuring her about your surgery and your crutches? She will be processing what happened to you in a completely different way from her younger sister. DH had an accident last year, ended up on crutches for months. Our then 6-yr-old's thought processes went: 'what happened?' 'how hurt are you?' 'how can people get broken?' 'how can adults get broken?' 'could you have died?' 'if I hurt myself will I have broken bones?' 'can broken bones fix?' etc etc etc It was the equivalent of an existential crisis for a 6-yr-old. And one of the emotions it provoked was anger that his dad wasn't invincible after all.

As a practical suggestion, perhaps you could roleplay sharing so you both have the same idea of when and how sharing works. Make it fun. Make it a game.

Thank you .

To clarify , I didn't count the crisps - dd1 did it in a very sneaky way and as this sort of behaviour is constant then I probably noticed it more . I will try to let the little things go .

I agree she may be processing things differently and may be worried about my surgery . I have planned some one to one time with her today .

Hmm I'm still not sure about the colouring books - I can see your point , but , on the other hand - I know dd1 and I know that if she assumes they are hers, she will try to control them and it therefore means that her little sister would absolutely not be able to join in (dd1 won't share) - and then that's not fair for dd2 .

If I say they are mine and say she can colour in any time then it leaves it open for me to be the neutral party and for both dd to have a turn .

Otherwise , it will turn in to another battle of dd1 refusing to let dd2 colour and dd2 wondering why I bought things for dd1 and not her .....

I remember my cousin saying to her 4 yo DD when she was asked to fetch something from upstairs for her little brother, and refused; "next time you ask me to do something for you, don't expect me to do it, if you won't do this for me." She stuck to her guns and it worked.

Maybe you should be honest with DD1 and say that to her. Why should you share your colouring book with her, when she won't share back, or do as she's asked? Maybe she doesn't really understand the concept that doing things or being offered things without expecting the same in return can be rewarding in it's own right.

I think you need to address the aggressive behaviour very firmly, especially hurting your leg. I accept that she was trying it on to see what she could get away with, but I would treat it as unacceptable and she would be off to time out and an extremely firm telling off.

Would reading a child's book together help, to do with relationships and getting on with people? There must be something helpful. Would dedicating some time alone with DD1 help, say putting DD2 to bed earlier so that DD1 has time one to one with you if she is feeling jealous of her little sister.

It really is exhausting trying to keep things fair as dd1 sees everything as unfair or that she should have it all .

girlywhirly I think you've got the point about the colouring books that I was trying (badly!) to articulate .

Also agree with the PP talk with DD1 in age appropriate detail about your surgery, get a book about anatomy for kids and explain what the DR's have said about your healing progress. Repeat why you can't do all that you used to because of the crutches/ need to rest more etc.

Hey PetitPoisPants - apparently I was really bad at sharing and quite a selfish and jealous child. Partly this was driven because I am careful with my things and would always return something to someone – but other people seemed to be more free and easy with my belongings and would leave them lying around, break them etc, whatever.

It was also really important to me to not be disadvantaged in any way – like I would want to go first if going first was better, even if this was unfair on my sister. I would anticipate things that were about to happen like picking teams, and try and manoeuvre myself into a better position. That kind of stuff. Quite unattractive traits really.

Anyway mum did quite a lot of role play with me which helped a bit. You know those social situation role play things you can do to help kids explore different ways of behaviour and potential reactions/consequences? That might help.

I wouldn’t say I am totally reformed though! I would now always offer share food etc but I still don’t like lending clothes or belongings to people unless they are in my ’trusted circle’ of people who will look after them. I still have the innate desire to advantage myself – like if we are going to a show that has unallocated seating, I will want to position myself strategically by the door so that I am first in and can get a good seat. However I know that this is not particularly attractive and can rationalise as an adult and avoid being too bad!

My sister is super lovely and chilled - so its not my mums fault that I am more inherently selfish so ignor people telling you you caused tihs!

I would start offering a choice to both children each morning, is it going to be a sharing day or not. If they (individually) choose not then that's fine, don't make a fuss, but that means they don't share things but also can't expect other people to share their things.

Gives them a choice
Shows the downside of not sharing
Doesn't make it good /bad behaviour

So if DD1 chooses not to share, DD2 chooses to share and comes out of school with a biscuit then she shares some with you. No fuss, just remind DD1 she wanted a no share day and move the conversation on

I would expect to see less no share days until you don't actually need to ask them

Always ask both girls though, stay calm and matter of fact about it and don't praise the sharing child over the none sharing child, that is just her choice that day

If choosing sharing and then not sharing, remind her of her choice and that she can make a different choice the next day but for today she has to share and then enforce it if necessary

whois thank you for being so open and honest

I like the role play idea and I think I'll try this. What kind of role play should I go for ? Should I act out the downside of no sharing or the positive side or both ?

FeelingSmurfy that's a good idea and I think one that will definitely help set boundaries for the day . Do you think at 6 she is old enough to comprehend and remember it ? I'm worried she'll forget by tea time!

Also, should I enforce it with everything? Toys etc - so if dd1 chooses not to share , then she can't play with her sisters toys that day? I just want to get it right

At 6 she should remember, if not remind her. Just don't make it a big deal and it's only for one day because tomorrow she gets to choose again

I am an adult and I don't always want to share everything, giving them both the options tells them it's OK not to always want to share but you can't have it both ways and not share your stuff but expect to share other peoples

Toys that belong to both yes but toys that don't belong to that child no, just a gentle "oops, that is DD2s, nevermind maybe you can play tomorrow"

i do pretty much what Wannabe suggested.

My 6yo just turned 7, and she's also the youngest, not the oldest.. but as my oldest is autistic, i have to manage their interactions for her protection and because its not fair for her to distress him.

I really take the view that i won't argue with her. I give my answer, and it's final, any attempt from her to wheedle or whine about it is met with a very firm "I Said X, if you keep this up, you will lose Y" and usually its either her tablet, or her time on my computer, and i will give her a 'what did i say?' warning, then carry it out.

I still don't think you should force her to share her food. As long as everyone has some sweets then why do they need to offer them. I don't see it as a big deal at all and I don't expect others to share their food either. By forcing this, you will only push her the other way.

My DS doesn't like sharing, I do tell him not to expect his sister to share with him if he won't with her. He thinks about it (he is a bit older than your DD) and may do it grudgingly but it will be something that isn't his favourite or something like that. Problem is DD is very good and will always happily share with him. I always make sure I point this out to him when she does it. You can see him thinking about it.

I think you really confused her with the colouring book issue tbh.

I wouldn't put up with the plate behaviour either. Stuff like that doesn't get let go here. Mine take their plates out as it's linked to their pocket money. Dishes to the kitchen after eating and dirty clothes in the washing, if it's still clean, hang it neatly on the chair in bedroom. If it's not done, money gets deducted. Dishes are never a problem, clothes however, well that's a work in progress, after having pocket money deducted for weeks in a row DS is getting it. I reiterate that we are a team as a family and it's up to all of us to take some responsibility and help out and it isn't down to 1 person (ie me) to do everything for everyone else. I also expect them to lay the table now and we have had endless arguments about who is going to do it so now it's on the calendar who's turn it is, they do alternate days each and it's a proper organised routine and they seem much better at doing it, well DS is more on board. DD has a bit of moan. DS seems to thrive more on proper set out routines and knowing exactly what is expected of him.

Your DD does sound jealous of her sister. I can't help you there as I have the exact same problem. DS has real issues with DD and it doesn't help that in general she is quite compliant and happy and good natured and he can be very hostile to her and argumentative. He does like a job though and loves helping with certain things, especially on his own so we try and focus on things like that. I always make a big deal when he has done a job or helped me in some way. He really glows then. When he is on his own he is a dream. DCs together and all hell can break loose, and it isn't just DS, they seem incapable of occupying the same space without getting into an argument. I always take care to not blame either one, unless one has specifically done something to the other, and tell them it's both of them. DS did confide in me once that he thinks we love DD more than him which is hard as we have never played favourites at all. I have explained he does get told off more because he does things more that warrants it and if DD does it she'll get the same but we have also recently realised he gets a lot more in the way of activities, days out to suit him and doing things than DD because he's more active but he doesn't see it this way, despite us pointing it out to him.

It is tough. I have the How to Talk book and it is good although I haven't finished it. I think I will check out Sibling Rivalry too, it's been on my list for a while.

Thank you both - I'm taking all these points on board

HarryPotter it's good to know it's not just mine

I honestly don't make her share all of her food - it's only at times when she has something and her sister doesn't - I encourage her but don't force her .

When her sister has something and she doesn't - her sister offers to share and dd1 will take what she wants - usually more than she is offered - this is the behaviour I don't like .

The crisps sharing came about as they both wanted to try each other's .

It is rather embrassing when grandparents have bought them a packet of sweets each and grandad will ask nicely for one off each of them and dd1 will say no - I find it rude !

Ha ha, I guess it is but I'd find grandad asking rude. DD will ask people for food and I am mortified when she does it and tell her not to.

She may learn from her younger sister. Sometimes both DCs have a pack of sweets and if they are different they will do a swap. As DS is older than your DD it may be something he has learnt, I haven't taken too much notice but I'm pretty sure he didn't used to do this. I've also noticed that when DD comes and offers you a sweet (in fact she is very insistent that you have it), DS will notice the praise and come and give one too. Sometimes he does and sometime he doesn't. I always make a big deal about how kind he is when he does.

My problem is he is a lot like me so I totally get where he is coming from.

And every friend I have with more than one child says about the answering back and teenage although they aren't teens stages and the sibling rivalry so definitely not alone. We all talk about having to be a bloody referee! I need a whistle sometimes.

i think its rude for grandad to ask tbh. It should be up to the children to offer, but if they've just been given something, they should have the right to say no.

I don't share my food, but i will offer whats left once i've had enough. I also don't expect the children to share their food either, but again, when they're finished, i encourage them to offer it out before its thrown away.

I was the younger sibling, and my older brother used to help himself to my food while never sharing, and i've become quite food possessive because of it.

My 6 yr old is being testing at the moment too - think it's a phase.

His self-focused myopia is around putting his feelings first, always. So because he hates saying sorry, he gets upset when he accidentally hurts another child, and wants his upset soothing away - totally doesn't get that he hurt another child, accident or not, and that child's feelings come before DS at that moment! Argh!

I think it's a difficult one as we as adults find overt selfishness repugnant, and so react to it strongly. I texted a friend just after that incident and said that I was taken aback as I'm used to empathising with DS not disliking him. I also wrote that I was embarrassed of him, as it played out in public.

So, really 'big' and grown up emotions, which are more to do with us as adults than the little children concerned.

I'm picking him up about it each time, even if it's just to say 'hey hey hey, niceness and kindness please!' To show the behaviour isn't what they need to be doing. I don't make a massive drama and punishment debacle over each incident though. That's more about punishment and making her pay than it is about effective behaviour change.

Eg " Toys etc - so if dd1 chooses not to share , then she can't play with her sisters toys that day?"

That's not in proportion. Not sharing once = a whole day of punishment to enforce. That kind of inflation of consequences is about you punishing something bigger, likely to be about you wanting to show how much you hate your eldest not being nice to your nicer behaved youngest. Kids don't react well to that kind of punishment, they interpret it as unfair and showing preference for their sibling over themselves.

Can't you try and make the punishment for the crime? Not sharing once = not allowed to share something else once. Quick cause and effect work better for you too- who wants to continually police a 'no sharing toys all day' punishment? And each te you enforce it and it turns into a telling off type moment, your Dd will see it as a new additional punishment, making it more and more unfair in her eyes, and therefore less and less effective as she has more and more reason to be jealous of your youngest.

Kid reasoning is really not the same as grown up reasoning!

Bob took a maths test and a physics test.
His results were in the ratio 8 : 11
He scored 9 fewer marks in maths than physics.
How many marks did he get in each subject? I know the answers are 24 and 33 but why?

Who the heck is Bob? I think you might be on the wrong thread Mrs Ballard.

I'd stop carrying her bag for a start.
I'm a great believer in kids being able to take responsibility for the things they can take responsibility for.

Ps I forgot to write, I heap on praise when DS does something kind, and I'm constantly modelling good sharing and thinking of others. If I see a good or bad example in others, we discuss it so DS can see that everyone plays by the same rules whether big or small. I also ask 'how do you think he feels?' To help him practice empathy - a hard concept to grasp! And if he's struggling I do things like show the same facial expression and get DS to too then ask how he feels - usually to giggles :)

I also link it back to a benefit for DS... They are mercenary so why not harness that?! E.g. When so and so does x, what do other people think of him? And how do you think that makes other people behave to so and so? Play with more/ want to be their friend etc... So when you are kind/ caring/ sharing, what might happen? Making sure it's not seen as a tit for tat kind of thing, but over a week or more... But basically showing that it's not about selfless sacrifice, it's about making life nicer for themselves as well as others.

One caveat here is that you really shouldn't use your youngest as the example of great behaviour, as that will just encourage competitiveness and that tit for tat measurements of fairness. I'd find other people to use as examples, or even your eldest dd in the past/ present...

And lastly, I'd create some things that you and her do together, and that mark her out as the grown up one, even stuff like you and her carry your own bags... 'Us grown up girls together' type of thing. She needs some things that allows her to build her identity beyond the one who's naughty and horrible, or the one who never gets enough mummy time... She may feel really grasping and rapacious, but one way to control that is to give things you want to give (shared you/dd time, moments, behaviours, jokes etc), and create clear moments together with her VS moments for all...

Good luck :)

And I think Bob should stop taking tests!