to still not know how to vote in the referendum?

[princessconsuelabannahammock]

To my shame i have never voted but i really want to on this issue, its about time i actively participated.

I have done a lot of reading on the subject however i am still unsure. The basic problem is that i dont trust any of the politicians to do what they say.

I am not too bothered by immigration - i live in an area where it hasnt had a massive effect and i think that a certain level of immigration is needed.

I can see (and have worked with EU funding) some of the benefits of EU funding. I think some of the red tape has improved workers rights, environmental issues etc.

I think some of the economic guess work of brexit is purely that and is possibly looking too short term, yes there maybe bumps but what about further down the line.

I think that the EU gets blamed by the government for things that they want to deflect from their actions. Yes i have problems with getting a drs app but i think that is due to under funding not immigration.

I have concerns with the way the EU is run and the lack of accountability. I dont believe our government have the power to put our interests first in the face of EU demands.

I have watched the debates and read up but i am still so unsure.

Norway have fuckloads of oil and riches on a personal level vastly beyond what we have here in the UK. Their pension provision, which you get simply by virtue of being a Norwegian citizen, is eyewateringly good.

Anyone who thinks we will magically become Norway is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Salene, it's more lies from the leave side. Turkey have tried to join since the 80s but have so far only fulfilled about 1% of the criteria. They won't get there in our lifetime.

I'm not saying they will get in but Sparkle asked what's the issues surrounding them

I'm just saying the storm about them and the EU is if they did join that's what the problem is

15% of the country would want to leave for better land ie UK

No one can be sure if and when they would get to join.

Ok thanks.

The Turkey stuff is ridiculous scaremongering and lies. A) They are miles away from the target. B) UK have a veto to use against them.

But no, let's just conjure up utterly false images of 12 million Turks at our borders, chomping at the bit to overwhelm our NHS & take our benefits/jobs/homes. Because that's what's actually going to happen .

Those peddling that shit should be ashamed of their dishonesty.

This excellent Guardian article lists five key reasons to switch from undecided to remain. In short:

1. Immigration: won't be changed by Brexit

2. The economy: there has never been such consensus among experts from all sides with no common axe to grind. The economy WILL suffer, and the poor will be the worst affected.

3. Sovereignty: remaining in the EU doesn't diminish this.

4. The campaign itself. Leave was yesterday officially reprimanded for the third time by the Office for National Statistics for basing its campaign on lies. Please don't let those lies sway you. And then there is the xenophobic tone of the Leave campaign.

5. War. Europe has torn itself apart over thousands of years. The last 70 years are the first ever with peace among Western European nations and this is thanks to the EU. If Brexit happens the whole Union could start to unravel and the long-term consequences could be very dark indeed.

If you're still undecided, read the article, please.

But we need Turkey to help us with the refugee crisis - 'we' have done a deal with them... whether they get membership or not in the very near future is one thing - I think unlikely- but then whether we have to give them more incentives to help out with the refugees ... new talks are starting conveniently on the 30th June.... this tells you more about it
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35832035

Unlucky83, one thing that's damn sure is that anyone working on EU law in the UK will be very busy and able to command very high fees if we brexit. There will be an absolute ton of work to be done by lawyers, academics and civil servants disentangling the legislation and figuring out how to rewrite it.

Even if you distrust the politicians and "experts" the overwhelming weight of opinion is for "remain". Surely they can't all be wrong. And as past posters have said. Remain is the safe option and doesn't preclude a future leave vote. Leaving is for ever. FWIW a mock referendum in my secondary school was a sound remain victory. The next generation want to stay but can't vote. It would be so unjust to them I we leave.

The next generation want to stay but can't vote. It would be so unjust to them I we leave.

Especially as we'd be putting them at very real risk of war in future :(

So even today I'm still undecided.

As such I think the only logical option when I vote later today, is to vote Remain.

My thinking is that if I'm not fully convinced by the Leave campaign by now then I can't in all conscience give them my vote given how high the stakes are.

My thinking is that if I'm not fully convinced by the Leave campaign by now then I can't in all conscience give them my vote given how high the stakes are.

I think that's very wise. As I say upthread, if a Government were committed to leaving the EU (if they campaigned on that platform) they could bring the UK out of the EU by an Act of Parliament.

So voting Remain if you're unsure could be voting "Remain for now."

That was pretty much my thought process - I wasn't convinced either way but I thought voting "no change", which in this case meant remain, was safer.

But how for long albert?
His main source of funding would be gone...I doubt he will be able to continue working in his present role - then give it a year or so and he will be unemployed...
Not saying he is unethical -just that he looking at things from his own perspective - he is biased - probably not even consciously. Which we all are to an extent...
Although honestly I don't think brexit will be that great for me personally - and no idea what is going to happen to be long term partner and father of my DC -an EU national -but I'm sure we can deal with that. (Could always get married I guess....)
I do just feel really strongly that we won't get another chance to vote on this in the foreseeable future, the EU is changing and I don't think it will be for the better - the Euro is so fragile - no idea what our contribution/rebate is going to be next year but doubt it will be less than this year...
Whatever you vote there are no certainties - no one really knows what is going to happen either way - voting remain is not preserving things as they stand now ...
I think Brexit is the best for the future of the UK and indeed the future of the rest of Europe...

I have just seen a post on Twitter saying the person was "still unshaw".

Resisted the temptation and tell them they're too bloody thick to have the vote.

I got a bit teary today in the booth, with my DD. I voted a big fat X on leave.

If you have no power you have no power you cant do anything from that point.

Lets start with power back to where it belongs, where our long and painful and proud history got it too, the Houses of Parliament. Then we can work on everything else.

I looked at my DD and I know more than anything i want to hand onto her - democracy.

Apathy is going to descend other wise. We know our government has no real power and will have less and less as time goes on.

The real government is not present in our lives, and we will become a homogeneous mass of drones in a worker colony with un accountable leaders.

"The Turkey stuff is ridiculous scaremongering and lies. A) They are miles away from the target. B) UK have a veto to use against them."

Except that the UK is their chief supporter in joining.....

Who is the liar here?

Any ways, it does look like Remain has won by a significant margin, the dirty tricks have really paid off.

People voting for Remain, you are voting for change.

Your voting for change over a longer period, your voting for closer union with the EU.

Luna that comment was horrid. And silly, people may not be able to spell but that does not mean they have every right to vote and may be making their decision in a better way than anyone here. This is democracy.

mamena how do you know

People voting for Remain, you are voting for change

Really haven't grasped the most basic points, have you? Gawd, there's no hope.

RosesAreSublime, the polls show stonking Remain leads:

www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/23/the-final-polling-chart

It's not impossible that Leave has won, but the chances are around 1 in 8. A week or so ago it was more like 1 in 3.

Basically it looks like we are stuck with EU, whether we like it or not (and around half of us do not).

I'm sure the EU will reward our loyalty graciously (not).

I looked at my DD and I know more than anything i want to hand onto her - democracy

Maybe start with an education, and a fundamental understanding of what democracy means, because you just voted away one of the best things your daughter could have in her future: a strong united Europe and the safety and freedoms that would afford her.

My gut is remain will win because I think a lot of undecided voters like me will ultimately vote to maintain the status quo - because Leave hasn't fully convinced them of their case.

I agree with pluck above.

I feel that the disenfranchised in this country are casting around trying to work out what has gone wrong, and the Leave campaign has shouted back at them THE EU DID IT! The EU is why you are poor! Why your child can't be properly educated or go to university! Why you will never get out of debt or be confident that next month's bills will be paid! The EU and immigration did it! And they say "YES! that MUST be it! Okay, let's get rid of it!" but it's not that at all. The EU is a red herring. The poor and disenfranchised in the UK are poor and disenfranchised because of the BRITISH system, not the EU.

The BRITISH government has been dismantling funding, pushing education to - and beyond - breaking point, moving ever-closer to privatising the best thing about this country - the NHS - and freezing what little social mobility there ever was (I'm intentionally not apportioning party blame here).

Nothing will change (for the better) for poor people in this country OUT of the EU, but because the remain campaign can't exactly say - STAY IN THE EU! BUT IF YOU WANT DEMOCRACY, REVOLT AGAINST THE UK'S ENTRENCHED, ELITIST ESTABLISHMENT INSTEAD! SMASH THE SYSTEM! they can't make the most powerful counter-argument to the leave campaign. They can only state economic and political facts that many of us (myself included, even thought I have two graduate degrees) are not sufficiently relevantly educated to fully grasp.

The poor are of course not the only people voting leave in today's referendum, but statistics from the Financial Times suggest that ROUGHLY SPEAKING, more educated and well off people are more likely to vote remain, and less highly educated, less well off people are more likely to vote leave.

The greatest disaster here is that Cameron was breathtakingly stupid enough to ever let this referendum happen. He was voted in on an irresponsible platform, and when he realised that he would be forced to hold the referendum, he should have instead said NO and resigned. The general public are not qualified to vote responsibly on this issue.

Remain is a vote for change, it's just the Remainers won't admit it.

When we voted for 'Remain' in 1976, we got massive change.

There will be something else down the line along the lines of the post-Eu-expansion immigration boom after 2000.

There is never a 'no change' option in politics.