to still not know how to vote in the referendum?

[princessconsuelabannahammock]

To my shame i have never voted but i really want to on this issue, its about time i actively participated.

I have done a lot of reading on the subject however i am still unsure. The basic problem is that i dont trust any of the politicians to do what they say.

I am not too bothered by immigration - i live in an area where it hasnt had a massive effect and i think that a certain level of immigration is needed.

I can see (and have worked with EU funding) some of the benefits of EU funding. I think some of the red tape has improved workers rights, environmental issues etc.

I think some of the economic guess work of brexit is purely that and is possibly looking too short term, yes there maybe bumps but what about further down the line.

I think that the EU gets blamed by the government for things that they want to deflect from their actions. Yes i have problems with getting a drs app but i think that is due to under funding not immigration.

I have concerns with the way the EU is run and the lack of accountability. I dont believe our government have the power to put our interests first in the face of EU demands.

I have watched the debates and read up but i am still so unsure.

I'm out. Everyone I know is out. Posters/ banners everywhere round here for leave.

If you don't want to see the economy collapse, then vote In, please. There are lots of threads on this but no more time now.

If you have time, then read through this:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2666675-to-be-worried-that-the-brexiteers-might-be-wrong-and-an-economic-disaster-is-waiting-if-we-leave

And this:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2666698-to-still-have-no-clue-which-way-to-vote-on-Thursday

And finally this:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2667788-To-think-that-wed-be-mad-to-risk-the-UKs-Financial-Sector

Ailicece - yes you say the economy would collapse but have you considered the true state of affairs currently on the EU? Sorry but the whole EU block is highly unstable and staying in right now seems to be a vote to guarantee a financially unstable organisation. I think voting to stay is not actually the economically safe vote at all, I think there are many financial risks to staying trapped in this very bureaucratic and slow moving (and very slow responding to new circumstances) organisation.

I have the honest feeling that yes in the UK we are smaller than the EU, but we are more decisive and more nimble when it comes to dealing with situations and adjusting to international circumstances. If we were voting tomorrow on whether we should join the EU it would be a overwhelming majority vote against doing so, this is our chance to get out and try afresh. Even business leaders on EU countries are admitting they would be foolish to stop trading with the UK.

Can I post a link to this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2668194-So-this-guy-spent-weeks-reading-and-fact-checking-everything-re-Brexit?

I really think this is important. This guy has trawled through the claims on both sides and found that pretty much everything the Remain side has presented can be backed up by fact whereas most of the Leave campaign arguments are founded on lies. Not even misinformation, but actual lies.

Rainbunny it would be a completely different situation if we were an independent country with international trade agreements in place, voting on whether or not to
join. As it is, it would be economic suicide to vote to leave - read the threads, please.

Noone is disputing that the EU needs to be reformed, badly. But the only way to do this is from the inside. Please listen to what ALL the experts say and vote Remain!

scatter what 'sovereignty' would we regain if we left? Genuine question.

Oh, and on immigration, there's a huge conflict between controlled immigration and free trade deals.

Trade deals are just that. Bargains struck between two countries, or groups. If one condition of a deal is that a certain amount of people have to be allowed into the UK or the deal is off, how is that the UK 'curbing immigration'? It's not. This situation is quite likely, and serves to illustrate the jingoistic, empty manifesto of the Leave campaign.

The short answer on sovereignty is that years ago, the UK parliament chose to give away some of our sovereignty willingly, despite warnings. Those of us who feel this wasn't a good move would like to reverse it by leaving the EU.

Do you want sovereignty back? Then vote to leave the EU

"Can we set our own laws, raise our own taxes, trade with whom we want, fish in our own waters, invite into the country those whom we choose and remove those we don’t? If we were an independent nation, we could do all of these things, save for activities circumscribed by international treaties. As a member of the EU, we cannot do any of them other than collectively."

"Parliament still retains sovereignty. The question is whether it will exercise it to restore Britain’s control over its own laws. And it will only do that if there is a vote in the referendum to leave the EU."

Noone is disputing that the EU needs to be reformed, badly. But the only way to do this is from the inside.

We've been in the EU a long time. If we haven't reformed it by now, I'm not convinced it will be possible.

Winterbiscuit

Look at Norway. Look at Switzerland. It is almost certain that any trade deals with the EU would involve us still having to defer to the EU in all those things, we would only cease to be part of the decision-making process and lose our say.

The main backers of OUT are very keen on avoiding tax:

waitingfortax.com/author/jolyonmaugham/

Norway had a fairly recent vote and 70% of them still don't want to join the EU. They're the 4th richest nation on earth and they still don't want to be in the EU despite being out of it for decades and the negative impact. On balance, Norwegians are happier out than in. I truse 70% of Norwegians rather than the so called 'experts' who say they'd prefer to be in really, if they knew what was best for them.

I think there is a big difference between leaving and not joining.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11963908/Actually-Mr-Cameron-we-Norwegians-are-happy-rich-and-free-outside-the-EU.html

"The main backers of OUT are very keen on avoiding tax: "

What a load of absolute bollocks.

Peter Hargreaves founded an investment platform for individual pensioners and investors to cut fees paid to third parties and advisers. Gordon Brown is well-known for having destroyed final salary pensions when he scrapped the dividend tax credit. Mr. Hargreaves' statements of support for lower taxes on corporation does by no means make him a tax avoider. Nor does deciding to declare a dividend when the tax rate is 40% rather than 50%.
What kind of blithering idiot, knowing that next month the tax rate is going up to 50% from 40%, would wait? Nobody, that's who.

"Norway had a fairly recent vote and 70% of them still don't want to join the EU. They're the 4th richest nation on earth and they still don't want to be in the EU"

Norway are not in the EU, but the deal they have with the EU involves payments that are nearly the same (per person) to the EU as the UK, and they have to accept free movement of labour.

If you think the UK can make better decisions for our country than the EU, vote leave

If you think the EU can make better decisions for our country, vote remain.

Um. On that basis should we also leave the UN?

Norway had a fairly recent vote and 70% of them still don't want to join the EU. They're the 4th richest nation on earth and they still don't want to be in the EU despite being out of it for decades and the negative impact.

Norway has a population of approximately 4 million (as opposed to the UK's 64 million) and a whole load of oil. Like Switzerland, they are rich for reasons that have nothing to do with not being in the EU. Because they are such wealthy nations they both have the luxury of taking the hit on all the disadvantages that come with not being part of the single market.

The UK won't magically turn into Norway if we leave the EU, any more than it will turn into the Bahamas!

Milly

It's not them and us. We are part of the EU. We vote, and many of the big decisions are made by consensus so if we say no it doesn't happen. For all our heavens sake educate yourself before you vote:

Explanation by objective academic:

million is he objective though?
He does come out as remain at the start - fair enough.
This is his university page
www.liverpool.ac.uk/law/staff/michael-dougan/
He is actually directly funded by the EU - he is a Jean Monnet chair
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Monnet_Programme
His specialism is EU law...he teaches EU law to UK students...
What do you think his job prospects would be like if we Brexit?

Winter you're confusing two things: sovereignty, which we have (we set our own laws and taxes) and a trading partnership (which limits where and when we fish, how we trade etc).
Leaving the trading partnership will have little effect on the accountability of government to its citizens when setting laws and taxes.

Erosion of sovereignty is something that happens against the will of a sovereign (person or nation). Entering into a trade partnership is a choice. Conflating the two to scare people is underhand.

Thus keep talking about Turkey too. What's Turkey got to do with the EU and why is it important if they join or not join? I'm trying to google but can't find relevant information. It has been mentioned/a concern by the OUT team but not sure why.

From 'VoteLeave'

Today is an important day in this country and in all our lives.

Today is a day that is as important as June 15th 1215, when the Lords of Britain got King John to sign the Great Charter of the Liberties, or as we know it the Magna Carta.

Today is a day that is as important as when in 1642 the working people of Britain rose up to tell King Charles 1st that they did not want an unelected person telling them what to do.

Today is a day as important as the day the government signed the 1867 Parliamentary Reform Act that gave the common British man the vote.

Today is a day as important as July 2nd 1928 when British Women were finally allowed in the voting booth.

Over the centuries people have given their lives so the People of Britian can be a beacon of Democracy around the world. (And I have deliberately not mentioned the World Wars out of respect). When people take away that democracy even by just a little bit we must stand tall and tell them NO, you cannot, you will not do that.

Today we have a way of doing that Democratically.

So as you walk, or drive to the Polling Station please think of all the people from history that have given their lives, their love and their futures to make Britain the most amazing country in the World.

Today you can be a Lord from 1215AD

Today you can be a Roundhead Soldier in the British Civil War

Today you can be a "Benjamin Disraeli", allowing the common man a voice.

Today you can be an Emmeline Pankhurst making sure Women had a vote.

Rise above all the arguments and all the lies and hatred and realise that when you VOTE LEAVE today, you are just showing yourself and the rest of the world the people matter.

Today let all our Ancestors look down on us and say that they did not fight for our democracy and freedom for nearly a 1000 years, for us to give it away because we were to scared to stand alone.

Today is our day in History.

VOTE LEAVE AND BE PART OF IT!!!

Good luck everyone

Sparkle the issue around turkey is that if they joined EU a estimated 12 million Turks would emigrate to the uk.