to still not know how to vote in the referendum?

[princessconsuelabannahammock]

To my shame i have never voted but i really want to on this issue, its about time i actively participated.

I have done a lot of reading on the subject however i am still unsure. The basic problem is that i dont trust any of the politicians to do what they say.

I am not too bothered by immigration - i live in an area where it hasnt had a massive effect and i think that a certain level of immigration is needed.

I can see (and have worked with EU funding) some of the benefits of EU funding. I think some of the red tape has improved workers rights, environmental issues etc.

I think some of the economic guess work of brexit is purely that and is possibly looking too short term, yes there maybe bumps but what about further down the line.

I think that the EU gets blamed by the government for things that they want to deflect from their actions. Yes i have problems with getting a drs app but i think that is due to under funding not immigration.

I have concerns with the way the EU is run and the lack of accountability. I dont believe our government have the power to put our interests first in the face of EU demands.

I have watched the debates and read up but i am still so unsure.

You've never bothered to vote before, you don't understand the issues and you don't really have an opinion either way.....why exactly do you want to vote on this?

You asked for links for actual evidence and digging down into the detail OP, and this is the best I've seen

Professor in EU law at Liverpool University

This guy has nothing to lose or gain and has a PhD in whats going on. There's a link in there to a written response regarding immigration, as that's not covered in the lecture.

I'd also suggest that if you're not sure to vote remain. We can always leave, but we can never go back.

Remain.

Trust the economic experts.
Single market - if we want to stay in this then free movement of people is essential anyway. Coming out of the single market would be ludicrous.
Morality - do not share a platform with racists and idiots.

Letsstaytogether you write this earlier:
Saw this today
Was voting Remain anyway but EU membership means that women from the UK can flee domestic abuse within the EU, or after moving to another EU country, and receive protection and support. And we owe the same duty to survivors who find themselves in the UK.

This is not true. I had to go to court for a prolonged battle with my abusive ex to allow me to move with my kids to another part of the UK and from the jurisdiction of the English and Welsh courts.

I'm a UK-born European by nature, education, friendships and marriage, so should be a shoo-in for the Remain campaign. Yet the more sincere "Leave" arguments are really sad. It is shit to be poor and uneducated and indebted in this socially-immobile, elitist country. However, I feel that if there's any "taking back power," it ought to be from UK governments which have under-funded/ mis-funded health and education (academies & free schools, and the like), have permitted precarious working conditions, have permitted massive indebtedness, and have encouraged this housing crisis, which are to blame, more than the EU. Other EU countries invest in their infrastructure, their housing, their regional centres, their education systems... There are EU rules on the amount of state aid countries are allowed, but there's also enough leeway within those rules that we don't have to be quite so bloody CHEAP (PFI, anyone? Grr).

There is a crisis, for sure, but it's not only on the EU level: it's on the level of the UK itself, and our poisonous politics.

Hodoooor - thats a good point. At the election i was on holiday and didnt get the postal vote sorted in time. I think i grew up and realised i couldnt bitch about the consequences if i didnt vote. I didnt say i dont understand the issues, i am not sure i am being given all the information and remainer/brexiters have just called the other a liar and said that they are wrong.

I am unsure about the EU as a whole but this is a massive issue and a really important one that will affect my children for decades to come - i think becoming a parent makes you look outside yourself.

I am trying to educate myself so i can make an informed decision but thanks for asking.

Off to look at Lilas link

I picked democracy as the most important issue for me - the EU is not democratic. Even the remainers agree. They say the EU needs to change, we can change it from within - that has been said for years and years and years. And it hasn't. So why will it change after we vote to remain? (I think there is even less chance ...)
Voting to remain is not voting for the status quo - the EU is changing - no-one knows what it will look like in 10yrs time... the thing that we can have another referendum - well I don't think we can have one until after the next GE ...then it will depend on the parties offering us one and the rest of their policies meaning we can still vote for them. (So a referendum and eg scrapping the NHS vs no referendum and keeping the NHS - which would you choose?) I personally think it is the last chance.
No matter what Juncker says - and bear in mind if the EU is a democracy he can't make the rules - or if he can the EU isn't a democracy and he is one of the last people on earth I'd want as the dictator I had to live under...
I think if we vote leave it will shake up the EU - we are one the top net contributors - the other countries will have to find our share, so have an increased burden, and with the state of the southern European economies... it might actually force real change. And Juncker's threat Out is Out may be an empty one ...the other net contributors may have something to say about that...
No-one does know what is going to happen. But voting remain is not going to force the EU to become more democratic...which it needs to become - so the only choice is Leave.

There seem to be a lot of complaints on here about not being "given all the information"
First of all, you get your information, you don't sit and wait for someone to hand it to you and complain when they don't.
Secondly, the Remain side have given lots and lots of solid information. The leave campaign have give you lies, bullshit, fairy stories and bullshit. No-one can give you info on what would happen after you leave, becuase no-one actually knows. So they are just making shit p.

The EU is more democratic than the UK has ever been. See, lies on lies on lies.
So many people falling for so much bullshit.

If democracy's the biggest issue then wouldn't scrapping the house of lords and electoral reform be rsther more of a priority? Commissioners and the rest of 'em are at least chosen by elected governments. The Lords still has hereditary peers and bishops. Bishops!

I would love to see your sources Hodoooor.

You make some really good points Unlucky83, thats kind of what i think.

THE eu is riddled with corruption within and without, ie nations within.

The most corrupt nations are romania etc.
If this was in relationships we would be saying " look he will never change LTB" He takes your money, controls you, bosses you around, stops you going out to other parties, controls who you see, and so on

They say the EU needs to change, we can change it from within - that has been said for years and years and years. And it hasn't

It aint gonna change.

if you want it - vote for it in its state now, it aint gonna change for the better it will amass more countries, saturate the voting power of 1 even more...the far right will make more strides..the pnzi scheme will get bigger

Well my parents fought in WWII my grandparents in WWI... they fought for our freedom, our democracy. I will not give that up. My father was left behind on the DD landings. Yes this is emotive, this is personal, but I won't vote away the freedom that he and his fellows fought for. You cannot argue against that. We have a government that are voted into power. If you do not like them you get to vote them out. This won't happen in the EU.

The EU was supposed to be about trade. It isn't about that any more. We can't make our own laws. And honestly, who really believes that the EU are capable of making better laws than us? Really? If you think that I suggest you go and educate yourselves.

Go and educate yourselves about the history of the UK, of our trading with the rest of the world. Ask yourselves why the countries of the commonwealth are still in the commonwealth, in spite of the fact that the EU restricts our trading with them, restricts their immigration into the UK. Yet we are allowing unrestricted immigration to people who actively hate us, hate Christians. You, who want to stay in the EU, you approve of the fact that parts of England have had all 'Englishness' eradicated. That there are no go areas? How many of you have visited an English village? Experienced the culture, the peace, the manners, the safety...? The feeling of belonging, of not being a minority?

If the EU was such a good thing, why are we not thriving here? why have pensions been put back? why are there austerity measures, why are we trillions of pounds in debt? why is the EU funding the Chinese steel industry to the detriment of our own. This isn't just about losing jobs, its about losing a culture and skills. Skills that won't be recoverable. It's about a way of life. Why are there riots in Paris and Germany? Why is Greece suffering such poverty? If the EU has the answer to everything why are these things happening?

If you'd fought in either of those wars you'd know that one of the main reasons for a united Europe was so that those wars could never be repeated.

Whine now about how badly you're doing in the EU, it will look like the golden days of old after a few years out of it, when you are alone and floundering.

"We can't make our own laws."

So what does our parliament do then, if not make our own laws? The EU has regulations designed to make trade more efficient. This is why there are EU regulations on health and safety, worker's rights etc. If there is free trade, it wouldn't be fair (=politically feasible) to allow one country to export goods at prices that undercut other countries, through using lower safety standards, for instance. Those regulations are designed collectively by all the member states through the European Commission and the European Parliament (both of which have British representatives). The real democratic deficit is at home, with our ridiculously unrepresentative House of Commons, not to mention the anachronistic House of Lords.

Does anyone know what the rest of Europe thinks about our referendum?

I can see what the initial aim of the EU was but it has changed, grown and expanded its remit and seems to be growing at an exponential rate.

To be honest, I have come to conclude that the UK leaving the EU will place the EU in a precarious position (and I don't write this as a reason to stay in). Too many EU nations are in economic trouble and only a few (crucially, that includes us) are arguably "thriving" economies currently. I believe that when countries like the USA urge us to stay in the EU, the prime reason is because like the banking industry in 2008, they feel the EU is too big to fail and we should stay in to help shore it up - in other words they want us to be financial guarantors.
That's s really interesting way to look at it, I hadn't considered that aspect

I think you understand the issues pretty well, actually, princess. Based on your OP, I would say your views are more closely aligned with Remain, with your residual concerns being to do with EU non-accountability. This is a hot topic both within and outside the UK. If it were just us with concerns, I agree that renegotiation could be difficult, but in fact there is a huge Europe-wide movement to update and reinvigorate the EU, making it more democratic, accountable and fit for purpose. See for example Diem25.

Personally, I feel more confident about the accountability of the EU than I do about UK politics at this point. One of the key factors for me is the protection the EU affords against the worst excesses of a very right-wing domestic government - and if we leave I predict that those excesses will be very excessive indeed.

The rest of the EU, and indeed the world, thinks we have lost the plot, if you believe the international press.

And yy to Hodooooooooor - read up on European history if you want to understand what an incredible peacemaking success story the EU is.

I seen a article saying if you undecided you shouldn't vote. No point just voting for the sake of ticking a box.

If you don't see any benefits from either side leave then don't bother.

The EU is more democratic than the UK has ever been.
Great rhetoric, let's see your working out.
To save time, if you are going to start carping about the House of Lords, The Queen, FPTP etc, I vehmently oppose those too - I voted for PR in the referendum. When we get the referendum on the HoL etc I will vote against them. I am voting against the EU due to the democratic deficit.

All of that is irrelevant, because we're being asked to vote on EU democracy, not ours.

So you already know I'm right then, why do you need the working out?

Why have you all turned the EU into a big bad bogeyman, to blame for all your troubles? The Eu didn't wreck the NHS. The EU didn't close your libraries, take benefits from the sick and disabled, or cut all your services. The EU didn't make Britain the depressing place it is today. You did that all by yourselves.

The EU DID give you maternity leave and rights, It did give you 28 days holiday a year, and a curb on how many hours you can be made work, and equal pay for equal work.It did give you cleaner air, cleaner water, freedom of movement, consumer protections, better security and huge help in crime fighting.....and much cheaper wine.

I can see a lot of benefits of staying in - workers rights, environmental protections, level playing field benefiting trade etc. I can also see that it suits the Government to blame the EU when it suits. I have worked in EU funding and seen the waste in the system. I have seen gold plating on environmental measures and the blame being placed on the EU when it was our government that added extra measures.

I dont trust our government, i think they serve the minority and i have little faith in them.

The non accountabilty of the EU is a massive issue for me.

I want to live in a fair society where we help those in need - incomers and residents. A lot of the leave campaign turned me off and i dont feel they have a plan of action if we do leave. I am worried we will be in for a rough time whilst we adjust to the new normal.

I am disappointed in the way our government has handled things but then i didnt vote so i have no right to complain - hence why i am keen to vote now. I want to make the right decision,its important but i am torn. My first thought was this was too big a decision for me to make but then i decided to try and read up about it and i had hoped i would be firmly in one camp by now.

I think there are a lot of things i dont like about the EU and i worry that in the future there will be more things i dont like and i will have missed my chance to have a say.

This isn't really a chance to 'have a say' though. It's an opportunity to stay in or leave. If you want a say, you need to be in contact with your MEP. And to have an MEP, you need to stay in.

hodoooooor I'll quote some remainers on democracy in the EU
Jeremy Corbyn's recent speech
If we remain, I believe Europe has got to change quite dramatically to something much more democratic, much more accountable

Simon Hix (Harold Laski Professor of Political Science, London School of Economics and Political Science -main areas of research and teaching comparative democratic institutions, especially voting in parliaments and electoral system design, and politics, elections and decision-making in the European Union politics.)
Admittedly, the EU institutions are not as democratic or accountable as they could or should be, and too much of the EU is technocratic and bureaucratic. Indeed, I have taught and written about these issues for much of my academic career (for example in my book “What’s Wrong With the EU and How to Fix It”). in this article
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/15/if-britain-leaves-the-eu-superstate-that-brexiteers-fear-will-be/
or
www.electoral-reform.org.uk/sites/default/files/Tackling-Europes-democratic-deficit.pdf
These are broadly pro-remain - but acknowledge the democracy problem
They have the attitude we can change the EU from within - which I really don't believe we can
I'll leave you with Tony Benn (who definitely wouldn't be a remainer!!) said The case against the EU is its lack of Democracy
think-left.org/2015/07/06/tony-benn-the-case-against-the-eu-is-its-lack-of-democracy/

BTW albert House of Lords - at one time I would have agreed with you except now I think we do need some kind of body who are unelected to look at policies and send them back to parliament to have a rethink. The House of Lords don't draft acts of parliament and can be over ruled ...
What caused me to change my mind is living in Scotland without a second house but with a PR system that meant there should be no majority party - except we had one (the SNP). Things got through the Scottish parliament (like Curriculum for Excellence in education and Police Scotland) that were badly thought out (basically fuck ups) - if there had have been the equivalent to the House of Lords they wouldn't have got through in the state they did - problems pointed out and they could have been amended - and that would have been a good thing!
As for a fairer voting system - I signed a petition about that - but then we had the AV vote a few years ago - admittedly the argument wasn't made as strongly or clearly as it could have been but people didn't seem particularly interested...but they did have the opportunity .