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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to say no to my tenant's request?

114 replies

akdmummy · 20/06/2016 01:31

I let out a 2 bed house. It also has a loft conversion that doesn't comply to building regs. Now the tenant has said that they want to use it as a 3rd bedroom and will have to leave if they can't use it as a bedroom.

I am uncomfortable with allowing the space to be used as a bedroom given potential insurance and safety issues. WIBU to say no, therefore effectively making the tenant move out or am I being too cautious - (the conversion has been there for a long time and has been used by previous owners as a bedroom in the past)?

OP posts:

eurochick · 20/06/2016 06:55

Eh? There are loads of loft conversions that don't comply with building regs for a bedroom. How is the OP neglectful? It wasn't let with that area described as a bedroom from what has been posted above.

WeekendAway · 20/06/2016 06:57

pearly don't be ridiculous.

Lots of loft conversions don't comply to the relatively new rules about bedroom usage, mainly through having a staircase that is open at the bottom and no fire door. It is still perfectly serviceable as a hobbies room or storage space though and would have been deemed fit at the time of conversion, probably. But rules change.

There is no law against having a space like this, just laws against what you can use them for. If this house was let as two beds only then no-one has been neglectful, least of all the OP who didn't even own it when the tenants moved in. And the original tenancy agreement was drafted before the OP was on the scene.

OP it would add to the value quite a bit I imagine if you could do whatever work was necessary to make it a proper 3 bedder, plus you could put their rent up. If it's not feasible for whatever reason then call their bluff. They might not move out, at least probably not until such time as the new baby needs to come out of their bedroom.

But I would check what would happen legally if there was a fire and it turned out that they were using the loft room as a bedroom anyway, without your permission. I suspect that so long as you had written evidence/emails to record their request, and your refusal, then you would still be insured and not considered liable, should they put their children up there and the worst happened. What I hope would be the case is that the building would be covered in the event of a fire as it always was, but any public liability or insurance payout apportioned for death or injury to any tenants who were sleeping in that room at the time would not be due, if it can be shown that they knew they were breaching the tenancy agreement by sleeping there. But you would need to check this VERY thoroughly.

pearlylum · 20/06/2016 06:58

Yes loads that don't comply, but they are not all being rented out. The OP has a duty of care to her tenants which she is neglecting.
It doesn't matter if it is being used as a bedroom or not.
The OP could be prosecuted and fined.

HopeArden · 20/06/2016 06:59

Pearly it probably does comply to storage regs just not bedroom regs.

pearlylum · 20/06/2016 07:00

hope the OP didn't say that, she said " It also has a loft conversion that doesn't comply to building regs."
So no building regulations at all.

WeekendAway · 20/06/2016 07:03

Did you read further than that first sentence pearly? It would have become clear what the OP meant, I would have thought.

Bishybishybarnabee · 20/06/2016 07:03

It really does matter if it's being used for a bedroom or not - because the regs will be very different. My understanding from the OP (and subsequent posts) is that it's the bedroom regs that it doesn't comply with as opposed to it being unsafe for storage use, but I'm sure OP will clarify.

BalloonSlayer · 20/06/2016 07:04

Presumably they are expecting to have a three bedroom house for a two-bedroom house rent though?

JudyCoolibar · 20/06/2016 07:17

Pearly, in addition to the points people have made above, did you read the bit about the tenants having been there 8 months whilst OP only bought the property 2 months ago?

ptumbi · 20/06/2016 07:28

OP - be aware that if you have a loft conversation, and your house is now three storeys, you will need a fire door on all habitable rooms in the house. That's all bedrooms, dining room, lliving room...NOT just on the loft room.

And yes, the rent should then reflect that fact that they are now in a three bedroom place.

LunaLoveg00d · 20/06/2016 07:37

Having recently done a loft conversion at home it's not as simple as "a bit of insulation and a fire door".

Assuming it's a two storey house without the loft, when you're going to a three storey house you have to jump through lots of hoops not just in terms of insulation in the new loft space but put fire doors on ALL doors which you would pass on the way from the loft room to the ground floor escape, and there are rules about things like head height on the staircase, type of staircase, minimum width of staircase etc etc etc.

Long term, it might be worth seeing how much it would cost to bring this conversion in line with building regs. Short term, I would get legal advice - you need to inform your tenant formally, in writing, that the loft space cannot be used as a bedroom. This is more to cover your own arse if they then decide to go ahead and something happens.

TheoriginalLEM · 20/06/2016 07:43

i think you can get retrospective building regs but that could be opening a whole can of worms. Although maybe if you want to change it's use you could go ahead and do the work and then just get building control in as per usual. The building indpectors ime are extremely helpful and will offer solutions to issues.

However if the house is currently let as 2 bedrooms then a 3 bed would be worth more in rental so it may well be worth the work. So long as you point out to existing tennant that the rent will increase.

Goingtobeawesome · 20/06/2016 07:45

I'd be tempted to give notice for their blackmail threat alone.

Only spend money making it legal if you want too and don't forget to put the rent up as it is now a three bed.

DailyFailAteMyFish · 20/06/2016 07:46

Ptumbi is incorrect. You will not need a fire door on all the rooms in the house. I believe this applies only to new builds. We had a loft converted to a bedroom 5 years ago in a 1930s house and we did not require fire doors.
We have a door at the bottom of the staircase going up to the room. This was sufficient.
I think you're being thorough OP, well done.

JudyCoolibar · 20/06/2016 07:48

What blackmail threat, Going? All I can see is that they've said they'll have to leave if they can't use it, which seems to be a simple statement of fact given that their family is growing.

LettyJane · 20/06/2016 07:49

It is not correct inl aw that there is a restriction on letting a property with 2 bed rooms which has a loft space. Just about every top floor flat will haev loft space and plenty of it has a loft ladder, light, is boarded uot and is suitable for boxes. My loft is the same and I have 40 boxes of my daughters' stuff up there. That is not a breach of the law. It would not be a breach of hte law if I let the house out either. NOr would it be a breach of the law if I let a house out which had a hut in the garden. Jus because some tenant might decide to sleep in a bathroom or windowless loft space, garden shed or camp on the lawn does not mean the landlord has broken the law because the property might have areas where a tenant chose to sleep. of course the tenant may not use those areas in that way but the fact they are there and they comply with the law for garden sheds, bathrooms, loft spaces is not illegal.

However if you can make it into a bedroom it could increase the value of the house so I would not rule that out. Does it have a window and does it have some kind of reasonable set of stairs up to it or just a pull down loft ladder? My brother ocnverted his top floor flat into a duplex by with permission of the freeholder building into the roof space entirely in accordance with all rules and his flat went up a lot in value as a result.

Lighteningirll · 20/06/2016 07:51

Firstly check the tenancy agreement, as the house was sold with a tenant in situ you have basically bought the agreement. It should stipulate two bedrooms and specify that the boarded loft space may be used for storage/whatever. It should say specifically that this spaceis s not a bedroom. If it doesn't drawup new one and inform your tenants that under no circumstances can they use the room as bedroom and that if do you will ask them to vacate. You cannot under any circumstances allow this to happen, it is unsafe. Long term look at the possibilities of conversion but it will be costly and if you are happy with your rental return unnecessary.

mumhum · 20/06/2016 07:52

If you say no and the tenants use it anyway you could still be liable in case of any accidents, landlord legislation and Occupiers Liability Act. So if they need more space they have to leave. YANBU

SharonBottsPoundOfGrapes · 20/06/2016 07:56

That room doesn't exist. They rent a two bed not a three bed from you. Sounds like they'll have to move on sooner rather than later anyway. Let them go and either do the necessary work to bring it up to scratch or make sure to include in the bumpf the next tenant signs how it cannot be used as a bedroom under any circumstances.

londonrach · 20/06/2016 08:02

Is seek legal advice op. Ive rented a house before where the landlord locked one door (think to store his bits in) and this room was excluded from our contract. Might be you have to lock the loft off as you might be liable if anything happens even if you said no if room isnt legal.

londonrach · 20/06/2016 08:03

Id not is seek....

LunaLoveg00d · 20/06/2016 08:07

You will not need a fire door on all the rooms in the house. I believe this applies only to new builds.

You believe wrong. There are different requirements based on the configuration of the property. Doing a loft conversion on a bungalow has different requirements to doing one on a house which has an upstairs and downstairs already. There are different rules depending on whether you are putting in a bedroom, or two bedrooms. Building regulations are managed by local councils and some may have different policies.

We were certainly made to change many doors for our loft conversion, which isn't in a new build property. We also had to do things like hard wired smoke alarms.

SoThatHappened · 20/06/2016 08:07

If you say no and the tenants use it anyway you could still be liable in case of any accidents, landlord legislation and Occupiers Liability Act.

God I love would be lawyers.

Occupiers Liability doesnt apply as the tenants are the occupiers.

The Landlord & Tenant Act and Defective Premises Act applies however.

Landlord is screwed as the tenants habe asked for it to be remedied and both sides know it is substandard.

WeekendAway · 20/06/2016 08:18

but isn't it only substandard as a bedroom? If it's not let as a bedroom is it still an issue? I know it wouldn't be an issue in a private owner occupier residence but is it an issue if you rent it out, even as a non-bedroom?

I must admit when I was looking at buying to let I avoided anywhere with a loft conversion - too many complications.

BeBopTalulah · 20/06/2016 08:20

The OP does not sound neglectful in the least from the posts. They have not tried to sell this property with an extra bedroom. The landlord hate is tedious...

It is 100% a bad idea to let them use the loft as a bedroom. Not only would I say no, I'd say it in writing and if you use an agent let them know about the conversation too, in writing. If they feel that they will have to leave, wish them all the best and move on.

The tenants will push for it/probably do it anyway (who wouldn't want a three bed for the price of a two??), so you have to protect yourself here. They are pressurising you to allow it by saying that they will leave - that's a tenant you don't need.

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