To be considering a doctorate?

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It's not as if I need one (does anyone?) but I am thinking about it. I already hold an MEd and I'm just finishing an MA in Special and Inclusive Education. With the OU an EdD would take 3.5 years from next May with a 50,000 word thesis (which will make the 20,000 word dissertation I'm ploughing through now seem like a short story). We are planning to emigrate in two years' time and I work full time as a primary teacher. Am I deluded?!

louche it was over 10 years ago and in my defence I moved on both professionally and mentally from it very shortly afterwards so perhaps I've packed it into a deep dark part of my brain never to be recovered. It certainly went on for an entire morning. I must have done ok though as I passed with minor amendments

Fair enough Mine was ten years ago too now, time flies!

With you there, Radicalrooster. And I have had PhD students in the past whose work I wouldn't have wanted my name anywhere near except a disclosure
"Dr Foggy has advised the author of the flaws in this work and has told the author this."

Foggybottom thank you! You're not wrong.

Literally just dipping into the the thread and noticed the words life time love of learning. My response to this is do not go into a PhD simply to satisfy a lifetime love of learning, unless you're perhaps retired and are looking to fill your days. Go into a PhD because you want to find new empirical evidence that fills a rather narrow research gap in a highly specific area. If you're part time over 6 years, you need to be sure that your happy to have 6 years of your life dedicated to that incredibly narrow area to the point where it consumes part of your brain all day and everyday from the moment your start until you finish.

The learning aspect of a PhD is probably about 2.5% about a very specific subject that no one else but you in the entire world cares about and 97.5% about how to become a competent researcher.

From the voice of bitter experience, I would suggest only doing it if there is an end goal that makes it all worthwhile. I will be finishing my PhD for the sake of my pride and something to show for the last 6 years of my life and to put it bluntly, it's fucking torture knowing that I'm doing something this hard for the sake of so fucking little, as pretty much all I've learnt is that if I pursue a career in academia I will end up spending the rest of my life as a square peg in a round hole.

I hope I don't sound too bitter and twisted, and sorry OP if I've slightly hijacked for your post as a vehicle for my sorrows, but in summary, it's hard, make sure you know it's going to be worth it.

Donatella - you're spot on. My biggest regret is that I didn't choose a subject I was passionate about.

I will be finishing my PhD for the sake of my pride and something to show for the last 6 years of my life and to put it bluntly, it's fucking torture knowing that I'm doing something this hard for the sake of so fucking little, as pretty much all I've learnt is that if I pursue a career in academia I will end up spending the rest of my life as a square peg in a round hole.

Donatella my sistah! (If you're female). Your whole post was the single best summary of whether to undertake a PhD that I have ever encountered.

I'm with you Donatella, I'm a month from submission and find it very hard to explain to my family (who are not academic) what the point of all the disruption and angst is. I have a DS who is 7 and has no recollection of a time when I wasn't doing this work, that's quite a sobering thought!

Anyhow, I'm also a square peg, it's unusual in my profession to do a doctorate, I almost feel like I have to apologise for it sometimes - maybe us square pegs should join forces and push for some square holes

I'm a month from submission

We could have tee-shirts. I was a month from submission for nearly two years.

bibliomania thanks you're making me blush, and also quite happy that I least wrote something worthwhile yesterday 😂

Totally up for a t-shirt where can I PayPal?

Square pegs of the world unite!!!

It was clearly the wisdom of many painful years distilled into a few short paragraphs.....

NeckguardUnbespoke yeah my 'nearly there' phase has been prolonged and littered with family catastrophes along the way - I'm reaching the limit of what's allowed now though (the limit set by the university and the limit set by poor brain!)

I did a research PhD and have no experience with the professional programmes you're talking about.

For what it's worth, it damn near broke me and if I had my time again I'd run as fast as I could away from it and celebrate all the other wonderful things I could do with my life.

It took a huge toil socially, financially and emotionally - on my family as well as myself - and looking back was in no way worth it.

This might sound very negative and raining on your parade. But when I was contemplating it, I got a lot of 'go for it, follow your dreams' chat, without anyone realistically advising me on the cost (in a holistic sense). I wish I'd had a bit more straight talking.

Hmm

If you'd asked me 15 years ago whether doing a PhD was worth it I'd have said no. I'd have told you to run a mile. The nearest analogy I could think of is this: it's like being a snail for about 5 years. Insofar that you wake up every morning with this bastard thing (PhD research) on your back, with no idea of when it will end or if there will be a job at the end of it. You'll probably be skint and no-one will want to socialise with you because no-one else on the planet is remotely interested in your research. And neither are you, frankly.

However, now that I'm a senior member of an academic dept at a very good university, life ain't so bad. So I'd say yes, it was worth it. But with one important caveat. Namely that if I met someone who was starting out again today with the intention of entering Academia, I'd still tell them to run a mile. Not only because a PhD is a massive pain in the arse but the chance of getting a permanent job in academia at the end of it now is microscopic (although there are thousands of incredibly insecure non-permanent contracts to fight over). The entry requirements for a junior lecturship at my university these days would have put some Professors to shame 20 years ago. Want a job with us, do you? That'll be a book, maybe even two, (University press, obviously), multiple peer reviewed articles in top journals and a couple of successful grant bids. Plus a detailed plan of how you're going to rake in hundreds of thousands of pounds over the next four years

Fuck that.

It's grim, radicalrooster. I love still my research, enjoy teaching and have wonderful colleagues. But the way we're treated is just getting worse all the time. If I get one more person who tells me how it must be nice to have long summer holidays

Academia is pretty much a pyramid scheme these days. Huge numbers of students and postdoc doing the actual work with a few tenured profs at the top. Very few permanent jobs. And you have to bring in grants to cover your own salary and staff and lab.
The last lab I worked in had running costs into the low millions - that is a colossal amount of money to be looking at raising.

I left academia ten years ago. I do t regret it. Industry isn't much fun but at least the pay is decent. Academia really should be the best job in the world, and i think of the stars align for you it is, but it's getting rarer And rarer to make that happen. Heck you pretty much have to assassinate someone to get a job opening these days ...

the chance of getting a permanent job in academia at the end of it now is microscopic

If you stay in the UK. Prospects are brighter if you're prepared to move abroad, particularly somewhere like Switzerland or Singapore. Not everyone is in a position to do so, of course.

I have moved abroad - science jobs in the uk are woefully undervalued and underpaid. Much better opportunities outside the uk, alas.

Well... I was considering a phd but now i dont think I will!

Im working the summer shadowing a Phd student and they work very very long hours 6+ days a week.

It feels unachievable to balance family life with a phd and still be happy.

I think it gets harder in the postdoctoral years. The chances of stepping from a PhD into a permanent job is almost impossible--people are left trying to piece together sessional teaching from a couple of universities, which most likely works out at less than minimum wage. At the same time, they have to keep publishing and attending conferences.

Then you might be lucky and get a 9 month temporary teaching contract that buries you beneath more teaching than is humanly possible (and keep doing the research). Then you have to survive for the summer without pay. And then you might get another 9 month contract at the opposite end of the country....

At some point in this process, you might win the lottery and get a permanent full-time post--probably at a university on the other side of the country. Then you have to work every hour possible to meet the teaching and research requirements.

It's no surprise to me that the majority of my colleagues are childless. And many are single because they couldn't maintain a relationship under those circumstances.

I think a lot of academics on the thread have missed the point about a professional doctorate!

It's a way for established professionals with knowledge and expertise in their subject to carry out a piece or pieces of work which develops their academic skills while recognising their considerable knowledge of their subject, in a structure which is better fitted to those who are already working in their field. It's more of a vocational qualification I guess.

However I'm in Scotland and a PhD and a DProf are both at SCQF level 12 and the same number of credit points, ie both are just as rigorous and demanding just accessible in slightly different ways.

I have also thought about this - hence my username!

But I am really surprised that the OU advertises it as possible within 3.5 years - I have looked at two other EdD courses and they both suggest five years with a minimum registration period of 4 years.

I am also surprised and really disheartened and upset at the attitude from academics towards the professional doctorate. I had no idea people were so dismissive and contemptuous of my course. I have been so proud of being accepted onto the course and passing modules and now I feel like it's been utterly dismissed. OP, make your own mind up I hope you haven't been put off.

I would be interested to know more about how it works in other European countries. A friend did a doctorate in a professional discipline as a mature student in Germany - it certainly didn't seem to take her the 4+ years of full time study that a UK PhD involves.

Academia and, as far as I understand it, the funding preferences of research councils favour those who complete a PhD as early and as soon as possible. But surely there should also be a respected route towards a doctoral qualification for those whose professional practice and experience leads them to want to research, propose and defend a thesis?

Me too Ellicam - my professional doctorate studies are very demanding and very rigorous. Really sad to have it all looked down on so much

It is really sad. I'm not from an academic background and don't interact very much with other students, mainly because I have two small children and all my time is studying or spent with my kids. I was quite looking forward to getting to know the PhD students when I started my thesis and now I feel like my confidence has taken a real knock. I've never felt like a 'real' academic anyway and this thread has just underlined that.