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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think some changes to the law on suspect's accused with sexual offences are needed.

224 replies

11122aa · 16/06/2016 10:36

I am a sexual assault survivor.
After the cliff Richard verdict am I wrong to think that people should not be named when investigated for sexual offences. Or even when charged. Or even naming the accuser as does happen in some countries abroad if there is a not guilty verdict?

OP posts:
ApostrophesMatter · 16/06/2016 14:52

Apostrophes jsut because you know one woman who once lied about rape, what does that prove?

It proves that it is never right to automatically believe someone. Thought that was obvious.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 14:55

But Apostrophes you already said you don't assume people who claim they've been burgled are lying. Is it only people that claim they've been sexually assaulted that you choose to disbelieve?

Buckinbronco · 16/06/2016 14:55

I think if you're the police and a woman comes to you and reports a rape you have no other option but to believe her. You can't have a Police force that makes their mind up on whether of not something happened based on their past, unrelated experiences.

The general public though- well, quite frankly who cares who you do and don't believe? It's not important really, it's nothing to do with you

DaleMaily · 16/06/2016 14:57

I've just refreshed my memory about John Worboys. I knew he had committed multiple offences, but I hadn't realised how extensive it was. That case and the police attitude makes it appear that a man has to commit at least 10-100+ rapes and sexual assaults before anything can be taken seriously. It's horrific.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:03

One of John Worboys' victims said the police officer laughed in her face when she reported him. Because some of the victims were prostitutes the police officers basically said they should expect to be raped. Five police officers went through official disciplinary procedures due to their conduct on the case, and the complaints were upheld against them and yet they still kept their jobs.

That is the world we live in and yet some people are worried about Cliff fucking Richard. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

DaleMaily · 16/06/2016 15:13

Awful. I also read that the police didn't believe a cabby could be behaving like that. Because cabbies are one down from saints, aren't they? Though they would have probably said it about lots of professions.

ApostrophesMatter · 16/06/2016 15:15

But Apostrophes you already said you don't assume people who claim they've been burgled are lying. Is it only people that claim they've been sexually assaulted that you choose to disbelieve?

I don't automatically believe anyone. I thought I'd made that clear.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:16

You assume everyone is lying?

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:20

So if your daughter or a close friend came to you and said 'X raped me' would your first reaction be that they might not be telling the truth?

ApostrophesMatter · 16/06/2016 15:23

I didn't say that either. I am not naïve enough to believe that all people always tell the truth all the time so I always bear that in mind.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:26

So basically you're not making any point at all?

AdjustableWench · 16/06/2016 15:26

I definitely think we need some changes to the law on suspects accused of sexual offences. What we need to change is the way sexual offences are prosecuted, with a view to securing more convictions.

The problems that need to be addressed are inherent in the way sexual offences are investigated and prosecuted. Naming accused persons is not a problem to be addressed; it is one of the few things that the system gets right.

BillSykesDog · 16/06/2016 15:29

They take the attitude that if someone says they have been sexually assaulted, the right thing to do is believe them. Because the overwhelming odds, are that they are telling the truth.

See, you're doing it exactly there. There is a big difference between disbelieving them and actively believing and therefore assuming that the accused is guilty without trial, which is basically what you are advocating. It's incredibly damaging for the argument that anonymity to not be granted to those accused (which I really hope it isn't) when you have so many people and high profile organisations prepared to nail their colours publicly to the mast to say they believe the offender guilty before a shred of evidence is put before a court.

Believing victims doesn't automatically mean condemning people without a trial.

Most of the time it does. When a specific attacker is named or there is DNA evidence, most of the time it means that unequivocally believing the victim has to mean that you also believe in the guilt of the accused with no trial and possibly even after being found innocent. Can you name any circumstances where this would not be the case? This allows people who want anonimity for those accused to point at this and say 'If you name me, even if I am not charged or convicted, my name will always be tarnished. There are lots of people out there who are publicly prepared to state they believe in my guilt without trial or evidence, but on the strength of an accusation alone. Therefore I deserve anonimity.' It's very damaging to the argument for preserving identification.

If someone comes on MN and says they've been burgled, the general reaction is to believe them

Yes, and I agree in terms of giving support it should come from the position of belief. And bear in mind that on MN advice is given from the position of anonimity for both accuser and accused. Bear in mind, there are no campaigns which imply that all those accused of burglary should be assumed guilty without trial. If there were, I suspect burglars may well be demanding anonimity too.

Not sure how it's done now, but when I lived in Scandinavia there was a general agreement among the press to stick to anonymity for all accused persons, regardless of crime, until charges have been proved.

I believe some European countries already at least partially do this. I know Germany only names first names and initials, so Fritz S., 36 or Heidi G., 47. Which perhaps is a reasonable compromise as those who are victims have enough info to come forwards, those who are not directly concerned don't usually have enough info to identify. I don't think it's very satisfying and would prefer to keep full identification plus pictures as I think this offers the best chance of victims coming forward.

But really, I think these public 'mud sticks' campaigns really are a big reason for this being in jeopardy.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:32

'there are no campaigns which imply that all those accused of burglary should be assumed guilty without trial.'

There are no campaigns that imply that all those accused of any crime should be assumed guilty without trial.

'In terms of giving support it should come from the position of belief.'

That's exactly what the 'we believe you' campaign is about.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:34

There are thousands and thousands of rapes every year and a very very small number of false accusations.

Therefore on balance any person who accuses another person of rape is likely to be telling the truth. Also, it's likely that that person has been through a horrific ordeal.

Therefore, it seems to me to be the moral and compassionate thing to believe those that accuse than to assume that they are lying.

ApostrophesMatter · 16/06/2016 15:36

Do stop banging on, Sparrowhawk. I disagree with you. It's allowed.

I have a healthy dose of scepticism in my outlook. I think the "I believe you" campaign is naïve. You don't.

Buckinbronco · 16/06/2016 15:37

here's what I can't get my head around. Innocent until proven guilty is a legal precedence that we all have the right to be assumed to be innocent until proved otherwise in a court of law.

Out on the streets of Britain, it means nothing. If joe blogs reads that John smith has been arrested for rape in the daily mirror, and joe believes him to be guilty, that means nothing.
John is still innocent in the eyes of the law. You're taking a legal precedent which has a specific purpose and using it to shut down conversation about the news.

But that's not what innocent until proven guilty is about. It's not there to stop people discussing public information and making their own uniformed opinions.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:38

I can't see how you disagree with me. You're saying you wouldn't disbelieve your daughter or your friend if they said they'd been raped, so presumably you would believe them. You also said you wouldn't disbelieve someone who said they'd been burgled, so presumably you'd believe them. So your default position is to believe someone if they say they've been a victim of a crime, which is what the 'we believe you' campaign is about. So you agree with the campaign, it seems.

Buckinbronco · 16/06/2016 15:38

*uninformed decisions

Pinkheart5915 · 16/06/2016 15:42

I don't think anybody should be named for a crime until charged or even found guilty. It's not about disbelieving anybody it's about not hanging somebody until the evidence has been looked at.
Once you've been named for something even if found not guilty it stays in people's minds about you.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:43

It is very rare for a woman to make a false accusation of rape. Even when a false accusation is made, it rarely goes anywhere. Assuming that a person who accuses someone of rape is lying isn't 'having a healthy dose of scepticism' it's participating in a rape culture that says protecting men from the very very tiny chance of being falsely accused of rape is more important that protecting women from the absolutely enormous chance of being raped.

TheSparrowhawk · 16/06/2016 15:44

Pink have you read any of the thread? How are police supposed to gather evidence if they can't name a suspect? Do you propose having secret courts so that people who are on trial aren't named? You do know what kind of regimes advocate secret courts don't you?

Terrifiedandregretful · 16/06/2016 15:49

Suspects need to be named so that other victims have the opportunity to come forward. The same as with other crimes. Why should people accused of rape be given concessions that people accused of other crimes do not get? It is hard enough to get a conviction for rape. If suspects were allowed anonymity the conviction rate would plummet even lower.

ApostrophesMatter · 16/06/2016 15:54

I can't see how you disagree with me. You're saying you wouldn't disbelieve your daughter or your friend if they said they'd been raped, so presumably you would believe them. You also said you wouldn't disbelieve someone who said they'd been burgled, so presumably you'd believe them. So your default position is to believe someone if they say they've been a victim of a crime, which is what the 'we believe you' campaign is about. So you agree with the campaign, it seems.

I didn't say half of what you imagined I did. Pointless discussing anything if you're making things up.

Sixweekstowait · 16/06/2016 15:54

Pink- it's called due process - not named until found guilty? Oh what wonderful cover up opportunities this would bring. I really can't begin to imagine that anyone thinks this is remotely acceptable