Another buggy in wheelchair space thread

[MsAR]

I got on the bus at the same time as a wheelchair user was queuing to do so. The driver told the wheelchair user there wasn't room, so I quickly checked and saw it was a buggy and a shopping trolley in the space.

The driver told the wheelchair user there would be another bus in a few minutes and they didn't seem to mind and weren't particularly insistent about getting on.

Was I being unreasonable to step in at this point and tell the driver that the person with the buggy should get off as wheelchairs have priority? He was pretty annoyed when I did, and kept repeating that there wasn't space.

I'm in London, and there are clear signs on every bus stating this is the case. I've often had to get off a bus when a wheelchair needed to get on and would never question if asked to do so.

Would it also be unreasonable for me to complain to TFL? I know I'm being a busy body but the driver's attitude really irritated me! I'd like the mumsnet jury to help me decide what to do, if anything.

OP, YANBU. The driver should be reported because London Transport rules require drivers to get people to fold buggies if wheelchair users need the space. And he should definitely be reported for moaning at you for asking him to do his job.

Not really related to thread but why do people continuously say"why don't use a sling?"
Not everybody can use a sling!

Op i don't think you were wrong, however it isn't law yet so i don't think it's fair to complain about the driver.
Last year when i was on the bus the driver was threatened for asking a couple to collApse or move off the bus for a wheelchair user can't say i really blame the drivers anymore!

I wasn't saying everybody can use a sling and I don't think when people SUGGEST a sling that's the case either but equally SOME people could use a sling.

London Transport's instructions to their drivers are that they must make buggy users fold up and move out of the space if a wheelchair user needs it. It's irrelevant whether it's the law or not, the driver was breaching his terms of employment.

And this thread, right here, is why I don't use public transport.

OP - I would have been grateful for the support and whilst I would also probably have said 'oh it doesn't matter I'll wait for the next one'... thats because making a scene every time is a pain.

My chair whilst manual is wider than normal, its about the same dimensions width wise as a big power chair. I am already paranoid about it taking up too much room - every time I have to ask someone to move out of my way, I have to ask at LEAST twice becasue they will hutch up a smidgen and leave their ankles right where I am going to smash them with my push-rims, because they see a manual chair they think they don't have to move so much...

Even if they do move their ankles out of the firingline, they leave their asses in my face (or crotch, not sure whats worse tbh)..

This is just one reason I will frequently say somethings ok so as not to cause a scene or get in the way, when really, its not ok - but you cannot spend all day taking issue with peoples ignorance, its no way to live.

Why can't a wheelchair user 'just wait for the next bus' - as someone else has already mentioned, the next bus, and the next bus, and the one after that - are also stuffed with buggies, may not actually be accessible, maybe both..

We have deadlines and appointments and stuff to do in certain time frames too you know, we don't just sit around in our wheelchairs working out how to piss off the able bodied all day long.

If I have to get to a train station, I have to get there on time, not just because missing a train is a pain in the ass but, because missing the person booked to BE there to get me ON the train can mean im going nowhere at ALL that day, can mean i get to the train station and have to go home again, not just, catch the next one..

If I am running late I may be missing meds, I am not keen on doing certain things out in public at a bus stop whilst waiting for the next bus (do you want to see me empty a cath bag into the gutter? Or drop trou for a jab? no. thought not).

I do appreciate that having several small children makes public transport difficult - but unless you are a baby production line, its temporary - got two newborns and a double buggy - order your shopping on line, get a taxi, go with a friend to help you - there are options (oh, don't want to stay close to home, its what many of us wheelchair users have no choice BUT to do, permanently)..

If you have to use public transport regularly with a buggy, buy a buggy that folds easily, they exist, but in my experience people buy the one that requires a range rover to fit it in even though they don't HAVE that range rover. Style and a giant tank-like buggy seem to be much more important than function. If your buggy doesn't fold, it is not suitable for public transport, end of!

Whilst I agree that wheelchair users take priority (my Nan uses wheelchair for the record as she has terminal cancer), I do think that it is more difficult in some situations.

I have a tandem pushchair, it takes up more space when folders than when it is up. The frame is quite bulky, then there is the two seat units which have to come off (it doesn't fold with one on) and the adaptors to consider, along with any shopping I might have, my handbag and changing bag.

There is 11 months between my two and I would struggle to collapse the pushchair whilst keeping an eye on DS1 (just turned one) who cannot stand on his own yet and holding my 9 week old baby who has recently had open heart surgery and screams the place down every time he is disturbed.

Yes, my pushchair is rather bulky. But I live in a terraced and I have a tiny back yard which isn't wide enough to get the pushchair out of the back door. We also have a large step near the front door which we can just about manage to fit the pushchair through. The reason we chose this one is so that it is easier to get around shops and easier for me to manage whilst with the kids on my own.

Buses are few and far between here, every 30-40 minutes or so and they are usually packed. I don't drive but usually, I don't bother with them because it's just too much of a faff with the pushchair. Even if it's pouring with rain, it's probably easier to walk than collapse the pushchair.

Also DS2 is fed through a tube at the minute and it would be too much hassle to do this if he was screaming for food on a bus.

On a different note. My 2 1/2 year old disabled nephew and his mother were on a bus once. He was in a pushchair and my auntie got asked to fold her pushchair up because another buggy wanted to get on. My auntie explained DS was disabled and that getting him out would result in a meltdown. The bus driver refused to believe he was disabled and stated that there was nothing wrong with him. My auntie then got off the bus and walked for the rest off the journey.

Why should 2 babies potentially have to wait in the cold for 10 minutes to allow 1 adult (for example) to get their space? This is a genuine question btw not being goady.

Will waiting 10 mins put your baby in hospital? Or just make them ill for a week, or even just cause them a lot of pain?

How much do your babies pay for their busfare?

How many buses should pass the wheelchair user before someone deigns to allow them on?

Will your babies be late for work? Miss a hospital appointment (ring and ride do not do hospital appointments)?

Did your babies campaign to be allowed on the bus in the first place?

SunRoute- Some wheelchair users are not better able to wait than a mum with young children. Ds isn't.. There are things that are harder to deal with than a sleeping baby waking up. People with attitudes like yours are the reason that some people I know limit their outings with their profoundly disabled older children because they are sick of having to deal with people with prams whinging and bus drivers not stopping. Your child ( if you are lucky) won't need their pushchair in a year or two so just be grateful for that.

Thanks to the other Londoners on this thread who have pointed out that TFL rules are clear. There are notices all over the bus stating that it is a wheelchair space and I've heard the automated message about making space for wheelchairs before. I'd forgotten that until a previous poster mentioned it.

The thing I like about London is that people do generally look out for one another. When heavily pregnant there would always be someone on the tube who'd shout down the carriage that I needed a seat (even when I said I was fine!) I personally think we should look out for each other but maybe I spoke out of place to the bus driver.

I'm going to write a polite, non ranty email to TFL.

To the people who have said I was not being unreasonable, similar posts about how hard it is getting transport are what made me think I needed to speak up. It would have been a non problem if the driver had just followed the rules though.

Thanks for all your responses.

Where are you people who cant fold prams buying them from?

Compact double buggy from Mothercare £155, it could fold with one hand and was so comfy for both my DCs, DS would instantly fall to sleep in it. Yes I left it up many a time when both kids were in it and no space was needed, never used the wheelchair slot, it alotted neatly into two pushchair fold up seats without taking up half the bus.

Yes I get that it is difficult sometimes but needs must, but to the earlier posts about folding a wheelchair, even if a wheelchair user can self transfer it doesn't mean it's safe for them to do so. Especially when they only have a small time window to do so and on a crowded London bus too.

OP you did not speak out of place. The driver was rude. If the TFL rules are clear then he should have abided by them.

YWBU. I also used to get off at the next stop if the driver hard let me on when the buggy space was full already.

Even if a wheelchair can be folded and the user can physically walk, it doesn't mean they can safely get out. A tantruming toddler is a lot easier to manage than a teenager having a meltdown.

You know the fiddly bits in the wheelchair space? (well up here anyway) the metal bar that gets brought down and the straps etc. That's for the safety of the wheelchair user.
That's why that wheelchair user takes priority over a pram, because it is so the wheelchair can travel properly and safely on public transport.

If you think it's unsafe to take a newborn out their pram, how much more unsafe do you think it is for an adult who uses a wheelchair. One of you can move safely around, the other can not.

I always get off if needed but it is unfair that you have to pay again for a new ticket, unless you pay extra for a day one at the start. The issue is the bus companies' policies here too.

Mummyme1987 Health and safety rules. On our older buses, if one wheelchair was already on, another buggy/pram could not boars. On the newer easy access ones. There is more spaces with fold up seats, and one wheelchair and two unfolded buggy's can fit in those spaces safely.

*had

Oh, and thankyou for speaking up regardless OP.
I do think the wheelchair user might have just been fed up of having to wait for the umpteenth bus. So thankyou for saying something

When I was pushing DM around in her wheelchair it was Christmas time, she had not long been out of a very lengthy stay in hospital, we had just come back from one of her numerous check-ups and we had to go and buy her a washing machine as hers had broken before all the home deliveries stopped for Christmas. We nipped in John Lewis and waited politely for the lift. A lady with an enormous pram pushed right in front of me and my mum to get on the lift first.
Somebody else in the queue piped up how unbelievably rude she was and could she not see the wheelchair. We didn't say a word and left the two ladies arguing the toss for goodness knows how long.

In my family, I am known as being the 'gobby' one. I'm not rude but i will speak up and stand up for myself and other people when needed in a polite and assertive manner. But do you know what? Me and my Mum were tired, fed up and neither of us could have been arsed that day.

If your buggy doesn't fold, it is not suitable for public transport, end of!

Sorry but that's ridiculous! Many prams designed for newborns don't fold. Most prams/buggies that do fold require 2 hands so someone else has to hold your baby while you fold it, empty the basket etc. Many mums may not want to unstrap their baby and give baby to a stranger to hold while they fold the pram, then find someone else to hold the baby while they assemble it again at their stop. It wastes everyone's time. Personally I think it's dangerous to carry a small baby in your arms on a bumpy bus with people jostling and squeezing past. What if the bus stops suddenly and you're thrown forward? Much safer to keep baby strapped into a pram/buggy with the brakes on.

Oh and many wheelchairs fold. Many wheelchair users are able to transfer independently or with the assistance of 1 person, onto a bus seat, and could then fold their wheelchair. Should they be told to do this? Or should it be their choice whether they stay in their wheelchair or transfer out? Why shouldn't the mums with babies also choose?

The reasons you list for the wheelchair user being in a hurry could also be applied to the mother with a baby. Many mums need to get to hospital appointments, clinics, or may be dropping the baby at nursery on their way to work. Why do you assume mums do not have the same time pressures? They may have waited for several buses before one had a space for their pram. Often the pram is being used to store shopping and the mum cannot physically manage baby, folded pram and bags. Why should they be forced off the bus because someone else doesn't want to wait their turn?

I think the only solution is for buses to have more collapsible seats, so more space can be freed up for wheelchair users and prams. But then you have another dilemma... should people sitting in those seats be told to vacate the bus to free up space for a wheelchair user?

My pram barely folds. The large carrycot on the top does not fold at all, the base flattens a bit. If I were to take it apart I'd then have to somehow carry the baby, carrycot and base and would actually take up more room. I think this isn't uncommon for a modern pram suitable for a newborn.
That said I would of course get off if a wheelchair user needed the space.

Many mums may not want to unstrap their baby and give baby to a stranger to hold while they fold the pram, then find someone else to hold the baby while they assemble it again at their stop. It wastes everyone's time

then how the hell do you even manage to leave the house.

there are any number if reasons not just public transport that may require you to collapse your buggy.

I bet you all manage to take your kids swimming or to the park.

why suddenly so incapable when getting a bus.

if everyone is so dangerous why leave the house in the first place.