To say your good fortune is down to luck....

[Shallowstreams]

On threads here I keep reading people saying how they've 'worked hard' and as such can pay off their entire mortgage by mid thirties or similar.

But most people work hard and that's a distant dream. It's only achievable to get and pay off a decent sized mortgage if you've had the luck in whatever shape or form to get an extremely high paying job or a very low mortgage perhaps because of family help or inheritance.

I work very hard and earn very well as does my husband yet our mortgage won't be paid off for many many years, and I'm almost 40.

It just annoys me that people seem to think they've managed to achieve this as they've worked harder than others and are not acknowledging the good fortune that has put them in this position

AIBU?

Sometimes it is just good luck but if you took two couples - one starts out with possibly dingy flats in undesirable parts of town and slowly upgrades (whether through work etc) until they can buy a desirable home without too much debt and one takes out a huge mortgage on their dream home in a sought-after location as their first home - then it's not really about luck is it? Of course, some good fortune with regards to health, education and jobs can also make a big difference but that's just life really.

Sometimes it is just good luck but if you took two couples - one starts out with possibly dingy flats in undesirable parts of town and slowly upgrades (whether through work etc) until they can buy a desirable home without too much debt and one takes out a huge mortgage on their dream home in a sought-after location as their first home - then it's not really about luck is it? Of course, some good fortune with regards to health, education and jobs can also make a big difference but that's just life really.

I know some consider me to be lucky as I'm very comfortable financially. However this is only because my beloved mum died. I know which I'd rather have and it isn't loads of money. 😢

mimishimmi anybody who can afford to buy their own home of any description is very lucky imo.

Of course, some good fortune with regards to health, education and jobs can also make a big difference but that's just life really.. It is life for lucky people.

I told a lie... I slightly know someone who owns outright due to inherited wealth.

He was one of the youngest in a large wealthy clan. Family wrote the guy off as "Not good for much" although he's arty & kind, but doesn't have the business head of others. So he was given enough money to live on & buy a large expensive property... he has nothing to do. He never earnt it & has been shut out of the family business. He's unhappy, very insecure. How is that 'lucky'?

Which is why you shouldn't measure luck in pounds. I feel quite sad at the instance by some that getting an inheritance from someone you love dying as being lucky, it's almost like they don't believe that people would rather still have a loved one in their life than the money. It just shows such a warped sense of what is important in life.

Actually silverdragon, it wasn't a time of there being a lot of teenage jobs where I was. I had to create a job for myself.

Re: lucky vs wise investments. Well you've put words in my mouth as I've never invested in stock. I have helped other friends get businesses off the ground and been a partner in these.

And in hard times I've worked for other people, I've been made redundant twice.

But yes. Clearly juggling three jobs for 15 years means any gains are down to luck.

This might interest you op

www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean

Neither is solely the reason it's a combination of many factors.

"parenting, health, geography, psychological make up, class, educational opportunities and even birth order can all have an effect." Also race, sex you're born (still very much a mans world), academic aptitude, fertility (contraception doesn't always work so unplanned pregnancy even if you do use contraception), access to healthcare,(including contraception/abortion/maternity care),access to basic needs (are people in developing countries who don't even have access to clean water just not working hard?)

A lottery/pools/ernie win is pretty much just pure chance.

Being born into wealth - nobility don't have to work hard, nor likes of Donald trumps kids.

There's also genetic lottery in looks, lots of studies show conventionally attractive people (physically attractive) are more likely to do well at school (liked by teachers and given more attention), get college and uni places, get jobs, get promoted, less likely to get sacked/made redundant, get an attractive healthy partner and therefore more likely to produce attractive healthy children, be treated less harshly by authority (eg if pulled over for traffic law issue), even more likely to get found not guilty at court.

Navyandwhite - so if your hard working dh has been taken unexpectedly ill/become disabled due to an accident not his fault and was unable to work as hard - would that have been his fault? Works both ways

Exlteve I usually like your posts but not keen on this thread. To join the military you need (by luck) good physical health (no deafness, sight issues etc) average academic ability at least (I think it's a minimum of 3 gcse's grade c or above?) plus the right personality (people who've been through a trauma not of their own making would be emotionally unsuited and rejected at recruitment stage) - surely that's all luck? My asthma stopped me being able to join up, a friend would've loved to join up but was born with club feet.

Never mind 'the harder I work...' How about (and replace with whatever deity or not you believe in) 'there but for the grace of god'?

Yes, I had the brains - genetic and health lottery

"YABU to suggest that getting a well paid job is just down to luck. Many people deliberately target a career that pays well and work very hard to reach that goal. High expectations of yourself is important." - if that career requires a degree then you need intellect as well as hard work. Yes?

Another analogy - fb shite so not sure if Einstein actually said it but something about judging all animals by how well they climb a tree - kinda buggers fish eh?

Philoslothy excellent post - your first one

" It's tantamount to saying that those who don't succeed, however you classify it, are lazy and useless, which would be appalling and totally wrong." Yet happens to millions of disabled/mentally ill daily.

"not all work is equal sadly; in an 8 hour day some people clean poop all day (not great definitely hard work), some people assume responsibility for other peoples lives (engineer building a bridge, hard work) some people think of what life could be like in the future and invent or invest in what some day may make your life easier (sleepless nights, using the family home as collateral, finding investors while working on the project for no pay). so not all work is of the same value." I like this quote but think it's more accurate to say not all work is equally VALUED

"But to think that your successful life is entirely of your making is exceedingly arrogant I think. " exactly

Trollthe - you don't consider your ability to work (physically and mentally) is lucky?

Me?

Conceived by a mother that smoked - unlucky

Conceived in uk where there is good maternity healthcare and nutrition - lucky

Born white - lucky

Born female - in terms of earning potential unlucky

Born to working class low earning parents - unlucky

Born to an addict - unlucky

Born into dv - unlucky

Born with reasonable looks - lucky

Born with enough intelligence (and no learning difficulties) to get decent a levels, a diploma in one subject and a degree in another - lucky

Education - uk so free, but military family so inconsistent and disrupted - bit of both

Year I turned 18 grant system changed so my father earned just over threshold but couldn't afford to support me through uni so I didn't go then - unlucky

Health

Asthma and various allergies - lucky to be in uk, unlucky as prevented me from joining the career I wanted to do.

Aside from the above was relatively healthy (lucky) until...

Car accident - not my fault, physical injuries, permanent disability - unlucky

Mental breakdown at 33 - partly due to working bloody hard at uni, plus being a lp on little money.

Excellent GP - lucky

Shit first therapist - unlucky

2nd therapist much better - lucky

Well enough to return to work lucky?

Great job thoroughly enjoying it, recession leads to business going under - unlucky

Next job - well paid - lucky

Bullying boss - unlucky

2nd breakdown - unlucky

2nd GP basically has attitude that all mental illness is fake - unlucky

2nd GP refuses to prescribe the ads that have been helping - unlucky

Practice nurse nice and gets me to see a better GP - lucky

Combination of bullying boss, shit 2nd GP, referral to psychiatry delayed/cocked up for over a year (by 2nd GP), meds cocked up all contribute to mh declining further - unlucky

Fall down steps due to existing physical issues, worsens these plus sustain another injury - unlucky

I worked from the age of 14, full time from 16 (while also attending college), various full time jobs from the age of 18 (lost 2 due to 90's recession, another as they decided to outsource overseas), went for a career change at 21 (thought I was too old ha ha) so uni, physically demanding job, did this for several years. Then jobs outside this sphere as I married ex (military) so had to work round him. Controlling relationship so I was a skint sahm when we split. Previous career no longer an option due to physical health issues so went back to uni worked hard and got a good degree. Car accident happened just after graduating. This contributed in part to first mental breakdown. Went back to work full time a few months later (admittedly stupid but was fed up being labelled a scrounger).

I've had lots of different jobs. From low paid manual work to managerial professional. I don't think a cleaner works any less hard than a manager.

Getting a high-paying job isn't 'luck' you work hard to get it. How do you think people get to the top of their field?
It's also about being switched on when you're choosing a career... if you choose a career with opportunities for progression and high pay, that's not luck, just logical planning.

A manager has more responsibility than a cleaner, more stress, more mental fatigue. You use many more skills managing a team that you do cleaning floors. So yes the pay should reflect this.

Does hard work ALONE give you the skills? Or are you perhaps born with them? As well as

Born with the intelligence to get the qualifications to be a manager? The luck to go to college/uni.

What about specialist cleaners?

As first career choice not being luck - can you predict which industries will be the best paying in 20/30/40 years? Because among the highest paying careers now is modern media (web design, game design and development), even 10 years ago parents were discouraging their kids from doing 'mickey mouse' degrees in these areas.

My 2nd uni specialises in this area, the graduates are now doing very well, winning industry awards both here and internationally. Yet their generation was seen as 'wasting' their opportunities.

*as for not as first

I think it's a combination. Although I won't pay my mortgage off for a long time, DH and I earn a very decent income with prospects of good I ncreases over the next ten years (if not more).

I definitely consider us fortunate, in that I accept there are elements of genetic luck, luck with timing and just some good things happening to us, but to say it was all down to luck just wouldn't be true. It's not just about 'working hard' though (although we do), it's more about choosing to take risks, being resilient and coping with things and people smartly when you get knocked down and making wise career choices that have taken us in certain directions.

We are definitely lucky in that we have not had 'bad luck' that has derailed it, but to say it's all luck implies it's pure chance, and that's ridiculous.

I think attitude influences your life. I have family members who are v negative, the worlds against them, nothing ever goes right- and their lives are problem after problem. They can't see that they could be grateful that they eg have a job, a better attitude would get them better friends and prob better relationships- but they prefer to winge

This will probably be massively outing but whatever. Me, my sister and brother all
Grew up together with out parents, mum left school at 15, stayed at home in the early years (we had no money and she would knit us our school jumpers, darn her tights etc) and then went back to work as a secretary when my brother went to school. We all went to the same schools thought except for my brother who went to a slightly better middle school. After school my sister quickly set about having 5 babies in quick succession, lived Ina council house with her DH who refused to work.
I on the other hand didn't go to university despite great grades but decided to get a job in London after a long hard search for job win an A level trainee scheme. I worked my way up through hardwork determination and lots of antisocial working hours including weekends.
My brother went to university and got a 2:1 and decided to continue working for one of the large supermarkets that he had worked at throughout univeristy and is now in a middle management position.
My sister decided she no longer wanted to live in poverty so decided to study for a degree with the open university. She worked her ass off for 6 years, an extra year for a PGCE and now has a great teaching job which she is amazing at and really enjoys probably earning around an average UK salary and still lives 7 people in a 3 me drool council house (which I am sure she would love to change).
My birthed has moved up through the ranks and is now I would guess on a slightly above average income, lives with his partner in a two bedroom privately rented home, will probably save for a deposit after their wedding.
I have also progressed in my job, have been promoted hugely through hardwork and effort. I ask known in my sector for being exceptionally good at what I do. As such I have a huge salary, big house (although we still rent here) and have lived in some very glamorous places all over the world.
Have I been more lucky than my siblings, have I worked harder? No probably not. I think a lot of it is about choices. My DS chose to have children earlier, my DB decided to worm in retail. I decided to put my career first. Who's luckier now? My sisters kids are growing up fast and she ha a lot of freedom, whilst we're struggling to have one baby due to unknown infertility.

We aren't big earners but personally I think we are in a great position as our mortgage will be paid off when we hit 40.

The reason is that we stayed living at home until we married - to save up for a deposit. When we married and moved into our house, we had no tv, internet, just one cheap mobile between us and we didn't go on holidays etc. We had a brilliant couple of years though entertaining friends and just hanging out together. We overpaid on the mortgage as much as was possible (our salaries were awful then). We then went on to have three children. We did then get TV and internet . We are pretty frugal still though.

I don't think this was luck and I know lots of people who would be unhappy being as frugal as we were so it wouldn't be worth it for them, but it was great for us. We have three children in a 3 bed house so again a lot of people would have moved up the property ladder but we decided to stick with our affordable mortgage. I think though we are very lucky to have family to provide childcare, so some might argue that luck got us to this position.

I forgot to add that we both also had 2nd jobs for years too

The only piece of luck you need is to be born with intelligence and raised with a work ethic.

Really seasonal? So was it my fault I became ill and was in a car accident - or was that bad luck?

What about people who get ms? Mnd? Eds? Fibro? Cancer? Get hit by drunk drivers?

I think it is down to luck. Don't forget, many big players were arguably parachuted into their jobs by contacts as much as or more than by their proven ability - Karren Brady was given the job at Birmingham City at the age of 23 by a family friend, David Cameron is rumoured to have been given a job in the Tory party because of a phone call from Buck House, the ridiculous proportion of ex-Eton and Bullingdon boys in the current cabinet and so on. How many (probably possibly far more) talented and clever working and middle class kids will never get those opportunities, no matter how hard they work?

Exactly seahorses

Matthew Syed spoke at WorkFest along these lines - about the combination of small things (marginal gains) that contribute to success. It was v interesting - I recommend his book.

This is something I've been struggling with recently. I have always believed that if you work hard, you'll succeed. And in terms of my career it's just not happening for me despite working really hard for years. I'm very tired and fed up and I have just started to think, 'What if it doesn't happen? What next?' It's a very scary thought because I KNOW I've worked hard so it's undermined everything I've always believed.

I'm also uncomfortable with the concept of success being measured in financial terms. I think it you spend your days doing something you like or even love, surrounded by people whose company you enjoy, if you have friends and/or family who support you and make you laugh, if you're not cold or hungry, then you're winning.

Mine is I guess. Though I still have a mortgage.

I was lucky enough to be born to very 'comfortable' parents who sent me to private school, I have that 'aura of confidence' so often spoken about.

I met a man who mentored me and have me opportunities others didn't get. This prompted me to go back to uni as an adult (mental health had me drop out of take 1 of uni life) and get straight onto course due to previous education. Parents supported me by letting me life rent free.

I have screwed up financially at various points and been bailed out. I have had deposits given to me and weddings paid for (just one of them!)

After uni I got a good job with a Big 4 firm, the 'aura' helped there. I met a lovely man who works hard and earns well.

We are not rich by any means but have a lovely life, I get to choose to work in a low paid job for a charity that means a lot to me and home ed the kids. Much of this is down to choices, but those choices came from a position of privilege...not everyone gets to choose! And those choices weren't in a vacuum, without everything given to me in the past I may not have made them. I haven't worked all that hard really.

I think there is more than one factor. You might buy just before a housing boom or right at the peak, so that's luck. You might work hard, two jobs perhaps so that's hard work. You might do without other things, e.g. holidays, flash car, designer clothes so not luck or hard work. You might buy a house in a not very popular area that becomes very trendy, that's luck and it happened to me so 20 years on we had a house in a price bracket we could never have afforded.

Not a straightforward one.