To ask how you afford private school fees

[Elephantslovetofly]

We have a young DD, and although it's a while away yet we are thinking about school. The area we live in does not have a good local school, and we are considering an independent school for her

Disclaimer - I went to a private school and for what it's worth had a great education. I enjoyed being there and did well in exams. I believe my parents decided to send me there also because of a lack of a good local state school. I might have done fine at a state school, but will never know I guess

We are probably 45 min drive from the school I went to - further than is ideal. DH doesn't mind driving her there if we decide to send her there though (if she is fortunate enough to get a place)

The issue is whether we can afford it. The fees are about £9k per year for junior and £12k for senior. Assuming we therefore need to find £1k per month for fees

My cheeky question is this - if you have a child at private school, what does your household earn and how difficult is it to find the money each month to pay the fees? Our income is about £60k, and at the moment I don't think we can do it (along with our other current expenses). Wages might go up a bit before we would need to start paying, but if this is always going to be a pipe dream i'd rather get over it now

I know we could move closer to a good state school, but am exploring my options at this stage. Don't really want to move, as we have a good house here and are settled

Thanks for reading

Lottielou - can you point me towards any proof of that. Suppose they don't recognise an SEN (because it's so bloody difficult to get a diagnoses)

Well what I mean is that they could ask a child to leave but they would be putting themselves at risk of a parent bringing a case against them. Private schools usually want to avoid litigation.

I was in a similar position to Elephant earning more than my children's father (me lawyer, he teacher) and it certainly might feel hard but it does wonders for female careers and career progression if you are the higher earner. You do the best for your child by doing well. I am sure my sibling who is a doctor is the same (their spouse doesn't work). I have always worked full time and the children have benefited from that - not least because I pay school fees but for lots of other reasons too.

I never found the friends down the road point really mattered anyway. My daughter's first school - Haberdashers, put children in classes with children whose addresses were closer to them and when I was at my school I made friends with someone who lived quite far away. It is just chance and luck and plenty of private school pupils are in local out of school clubs anyway or just make friends. The boy who lives opposite our house seemed almost to live here at one point he was over so much when he was younger (different school).

I get the impression from this thread and elsewhere that on the whole in most marriages women tend to have the biggest influence and last say on schooling for children. My children's father would have been content with either system (although he has worked in state and priate schools and the state school he said was like being a policeman - but that was probably just a bad one) but I went to a private school and wanted that for the children . I am pretty my oldest (the daughters) would still be lawyers had they gone to state schools or whatever else they chose as there are lots of good state as well as private schools within the M25 however but I could pay (we don't spend a lot of things other people do like eating out, Starbucks, clothes as that's not where my interests lie).

This has been a good thread. Sometimes there are such very strong feelings between fee paying and state school parents often due to deep seated political and moral grounds that people end up being nasty to each other but that hasn't really happened here and instead people have just given their considered views, which is nice.

I don't remember any child with a special need being asked to leave my childrens' schools over the years. Obviously some schools in both sectors can or cannot take particular special needs so if that is an issue do the research carefully. There are teenagers in my sons' school who use lap tops and have extra time because of dyslexia. One of my sons who is a bit scathing to me (not to the boys) about the extra exam time/help some of the boys get says they even get extra time because their wrist hurts in exams which in his view is surely the case for just about anyone who writes fast for 3 hours but that's a separate topic. There are also specific private schools which help different kinds of special needs. However I acecpt that in relation to very selective academic private schools and indeed state grammars those who have a disability which means they cannot pass the entrance test are not going to get in just as the specialist music school my son's friend went to at 13+ would not take someone who didn't play instruments.

Gosh,that was long even by my standards. You can see I'm putting off starting work today.....

Just a small point user, but there is a process to go through to get extra time in external exams. Proof of SEN is needed and you wouldn't get it for a "sore wrist".

Internal exams are another matter as the school is under much less stringent requirements.

Yes, I know. One of my other children who is slightly dyslexic got extra time and my older son was allowed to type his A levels and they both needed that help and it's tougher today than it was to get the extra time etc even with a psychologist's report. It was just the way some of these conditions were described on the recent public exam sheet that was interesting - we could understand those who type and those who have extra time - the traditional adaptions. It was the ones who need "breaks" throughout and also some who have a "prompter" (I am not even sure what that is - may be the teenager's mind wanders (whose doesn't?) and they need someone there to bring them back down to concentrating again). I am not against extra provision for those who need it at all. My teenager is overly cynical about it; I am not.

It is completely normal for a school to suggest to parents that their child might fit in better in an alternative school, for academic or other reasons.
It is also completely normal for private schools to charge extra for providing extra help for whatever reason.
I don't know for sure but I very much doubt that a selective school would not be allowed to select.

Ds gets extra time for Dow processing speed & what he describes as a sore wrist. What it actuslly is is he is hyper mobile with poor fine motor skills.

His school are treating aspie meltdowns (he doesn't affect anyone else just gets too much for him) as poor behaviour

pipsqueak that is incorrect about university discrimination.

Universities may make contextual offers to applicants considered at a disadvantage. But 'going to a state school' isn't considered a blanket disadvantage.

In any event contextual offers are not that much lower generally. IMVHO often not low enough to outweigh the disadvantage experienced by some pupils.

TBH with the slashing of sixth form budgets, the push to return to the 3 subject year 12 etc private sixth form is looking more and more VFM.

I think there is massive inequality in our education system, but it cuts across both the state and the independent sector. I am deeply uncomfortable with this inequality, but I'll be honest in saying that I still selfishly want "the best" for my dd.

I don't blame individual parents for choosing private schools for their DC, any more than I blame individuals for moving into the catchment of a good or outstanding state school. I confess that we did the latter. Most people will make decisions that they think will benefit their DC, and if there is inequality in the system, then it's the system that needs to change. Sadly, it's very difficult to level the playing field when parental input is such a huge part of the picture.

If I thought that an independent education was going to be better for my DC, then I'd have chosen it, regardless of the political misgivings that I might have over the rights and wrongs of private schools. Perhaps that makes me a hypocrite, but it's the honest truth. I love my dd and I want the best for her.

As it happens, I don't think it's worth paying for private schooling. I studied alongside many privately educated people and now work alongside them too. Many are now choosing to send their kids to private schools, too. Fair enough - their choice, but it all seems a bit "Emperor's new clothes" to me. I don't personally think the "advantages" that they perceive are worth the investment, but as long as they're happy, I guess it doesn't matter what I think.

Most of my privately educating friends are nice, normal people, but some of the privately educating parents on here sound insufferable. So smug and blinkered. I think I'd pay for my DC not to be around people like that.

Lottielou: Private schools can’t ask a student to leave because they have SEN and don’t fit the profile of the school

Not overtly, perhaps - but this is naive.

Although there are many private schools which are excellent with some SEND, many have very little knowledge or expertise because their staff haven’t needed to develop it. Consider how SEND often present in children - struggling to keep up with the pace of learning, sometimes displaying challenging behaviour. In a school where no-one thinks to screen for an additional need, the conversation becomes about the child’s behaviour rather than their needs. No stretch then to suggest gently that the parents might like to look at alternative providers for their child as the current school isn’t a ‘good fit’.

How would you bring a disability discrimination suit when there is no diagnosis or even discussion of an additional need?

Incidentally, on the topic of examination access arrangements - all arrangements need to be supported by evidence that the support given is the child’s normal way of working. There is no requirement for specialist assessment to use a word processor, as long as that is the student’s normal way of working. Extra time, a reader, rest breaks, a scribe etc must all be backed up with assessments by a specialist teacher or educational psychologist as well as evidence that this is the child’s normal way of working. It costs my state school £100+ / hr to bring in a specialist teacher, which I assume would be passed on to the parent in a private context. We have a waiting list of months for referrals to the EP.

Rather than focusing on the school you should look at your daughter and ask 'would she succeed in any educational environment?' I am a teacher in state school (primary) and have a daughter at an independent girls senior school (which was my husband's choice). Your daughter will succeed anywhere with the right attitude. If she goes to state school and is motivated, she will be in the top sets with like-minded peers and will be pushed to achieve targets to improve school data for Ofsted. If she is at an independent selective school, she will not be in such a high set unless she is 'gifted and talented' and may be allowed to 'coast' a little bit more. What she will get at an independent school in the UK though is a set of friends from a privileged, affluent background (my daughter's school does not grant scholarships but does give some burseries) a massive extra-curricular timetabling opportunity including (at senior school) sports such as sailing and lacrosse, entering Entrepreneur of the year activities and numerous educational trips and competitions competing with similar independent schools (which you may find she has little time for after all the homework and after-school opportunities). One of the most important things is access to the best universities and companies when she leaves to find a job. Oh, and of course, opportunities completely organised by school to achieve Duke of Edinburgh awards which are a great addition to the CV.
We asked our daughter if she wanted to go to the school when she passed the gruelling series of entrance exams and the interview, as it was only fair after all that effort, and she wanted too despite non of her friends going. We 'cut our cloth' a little to afford it but our combined salary is above the average for a couple in the UK and my daughter has not wanted to go on many of the trips. Funnily enough, many of her extra-curricular activities are taken outside of school with her friends from her state primary school and we pay extra for them so we are probably not getting value-for-money.
It is about your daughter and if she is too young to contribute at the moment, my advice would be to send her to a state primary school and help her with her homework until you are aware of her academic potential. The independent school (in my opinion) provides pupils with a well-rounded education, they study lots more subjects than a state school in Year 7.8 and 9 in senior school and have a much wider curriculum from which to choose their options, therefore nurturing their specific talents. The artwork and creative projects produced from the technology subjects would not be out-of-place in any art gallery or on any runway.
Another question is, if you send your daughter, could you afford to send any subsequent children because there may be questions asked if you can't.
Hope I have not confused you further.
Best wishes with your choice.

"Universities may make contextual offers to applicants considered at a disadvantage. But 'going to a state school' isn't considered a blanket disadvantage."

It says something very depressing about mumsnet education discussions that so many people automatically assume that it is. And something even more depressing that some people want their privately educated children to go to a state 6th form because they think it will game the system to their advantage.

And don't get me started on "state til 8".................

This has been such an interesting thread. We considered private but when we did the sums realised this just wasn't an option. We have 3 dc and have one salary just shy of £200,000 but we have a mortgage 3x that salary, which has a few more years to run. I would consider private if I were working as my salary before children would have made it possible but right now I do not see it as an option on the one salary. I think OP you really have to consider whether you want to be saddled with another debt. What if you can't work full time until retirement age ? Are you the type of person that can do without luxuries and by these I mean doing up your house, new furniture, luxury food etc. Personally I would move to an area with a good state primary school and start saving for the private fees for when your dc is 11 if that is what your heart is set on.

School fees are not something that should be coming out of your salary imo, unless your earnings are extremely high and you won't notice it. You should start saving now which sounds possible on your salary and do some research on state primaries. My own dcs learn instruments, use computers and have very nurturing teachers. Imo private at primary level is a waste of money unless you are rich. You can always employ private tutors yourself if you feel your child needs a helping hand in a particular area. Good luck.

I haven't read all the responses here OP but in response to your question, I think you could do it on your salary and outgoings.

I teach at an independent school (senior) and have 2DCs in the prep (y2&Nursery). I get a sizeable discount on fees, which is amazing. DH earns about 60k and I earn about 25k part time. We would struggle to send 2 without the discount but would scrimp and save to do it as we believe it's worth it.

Remember that you should be able to use your government funding hours against fees whilst your DC are 3/4 which will make Nursery and Reception cheaper. School fees are costing me less for DD2 this year than I was paying for 3 days at daycare nursery.

I totally disagree with the poster who said that it's a waste of money for 3 yr olds. To me, this has been the best bit. My kids were both so stimulated and happy in the school's Nursery and could both read fluently in reception.

DS is in a class of 9. He is a quiet, studious big who would get lost in a big class but gets lots of attention from a teacher who knows him really well. I have 2 friends with DCs the same age in highly regarded local state schools - both have been heard read approx once a fortnight in Yr1/2 - my DS is listened to every day.

Re. Bursaries - they are designed for people who would really struggle otherwise, so I don't think you'd be eligible at most schools. It's a tough climate for indep schools at the moment though and they need bums on seats to function so it may be worth showing a serious interest and then saying that you can't afford it after all - may get some sort of discount. This is more likely at secondary. Most prep schools don't offer any discounts.

I wouldn't worry too much about additional costs - unless you are looking at really high end schools, you shouldn't find things like uniform that much more expensive. There will always be kids in the year group who have more, can do more etc but that's not a bad life lesson IMO. Don't feel under pressure for her to have to do everything - she doesn't.

Grease
Not miserable, I probably under-estimated slightly what I get but would be around 100-150 a month for groceries etc
We have all we need (games console, iPad, toys, etc) I don't understand the clothes thing, clothes get bought or made when needed not on a monthly basis.
We live near some beautiful lakes, several different parks including nature and wildlife areas etc
We have home grown fruit and veg and decent meals from scratch.
I don't think that's miserable but maybe I'm missing something

What's wrong with state until 8 if the local schools are high quality. The state has a legal obligation to educate ALL children and taxes pay for that education. It is perfectly legal to send a child to the private sector at 8. One continues to pay taxes towards the place they have vacated. If state primaries offered more specialist teaching between 8 and 11, including a foreign language, we might nit have made that decision. DH's school offered specialist subject teaching, specialist music tuition, and fantastic sports facilities and coaching. His primary didn't and he needed more. We were exhausted by his energy and thirst for knowledge which were not catered for by his state primary. The words "you are lucky, he's at that end if the spectrum, our resources are focused on getting the other end to SATS levels, not on extending those already there" were the words that initiated the move. In fact my DH got up from the table and left the room with the words "then we need to send him to a different school".

Maybe off topic here - but those who do private ed, how much do you set aside for fees?

I know some people pay per month straight from wages but that doesn't seem very secure if you loose a job. I do know schools who pick up the fees if parents loose jobs but is it normal to have a years worth of fees in the bank? I'm guessing not?

Lottielou, im afraid private schools can and will ask a child to leave if they have SEN, it has happened to me with my DS who has mild speech delay and the excuse is he is too much of a burden on staff as the SALT has prescribed ican activities which can be done in small groups regardless if a child had needs. I also know of an autistic boy whose meltdowns were cited as disruptive behaviour.

Private schools can muddy their policies as and when they feel like it, mine has just updated their admissions policy to not accepting applications from statemented children and offers now conditional on a school being able to meet needs of SEN, despite claiming to be non selective!

Grease just used a calculator and your calculations are wrong anyway lol

It’s a tough one. All of our children are in private education but money got tighter and tighter so finally we all sat down as a family and all made cuts together. It was a fun exercise and taught the children the value of money. For example DD6 decided she didn’t need to keep three ponies so sold two, while DS2 sold his jet skis. Then we decided – as a family – to subdivide the estate. This meant selling off the polo field, but we all agreed.

Don’t get me wrong, there are times when DP and I have doubts that we’ve made the right decision. At the end of a long day when I’ve had to drive myself home from work (driver left as part of austerity measures) and my wife is also knackered (home help cut to four), we have to console ourselves over a bottle of ‘75 Chateau Musar from the wine cellar that, while DD3 is no longer privately coached by Beccy Addlington, at least she doesn’t have to attend one of those ghastly state schools.

I would love to be able to take discriminatory action against my DS school just to name and shame them but do not have a leg to stand on as they cover their arses well and truly before they throw your child out. My eldest is also happy and settled there and do not want to rock the boat, at least for another couple of years when there is a natural 13 plus entry point from other schools. He wants to leave as he hates the way his brother has been treated but is mature enough to understand he has to sit tight for a while.

"DH's school offered specialist subject teaching, specialist music tuition, and fantastic sports facilities and coaching. His primary didn't"

Can you hazard a guess as to why his state primary school did not offer these things?

We had three/four years' of fees in the bank. We paid the first three years up front and by the time fees were due again had enough to pay from 11-16. We didn't pay 18 because we thought he might want to board for 6th form but when it came to it he loved his school so much he decided he would stay and do the IB. We were worried because he wasn't a natural all rounder but needn't have because he made the right choice and got 44 points.

Harryelephante. I feel your pain. Contraception might have helped you