To ask how you afford private school fees

[Elephantslovetofly]

We have a young DD, and although it's a while away yet we are thinking about school. The area we live in does not have a good local school, and we are considering an independent school for her

Disclaimer - I went to a private school and for what it's worth had a great education. I enjoyed being there and did well in exams. I believe my parents decided to send me there also because of a lack of a good local state school. I might have done fine at a state school, but will never know I guess

We are probably 45 min drive from the school I went to - further than is ideal. DH doesn't mind driving her there if we decide to send her there though (if she is fortunate enough to get a place)

The issue is whether we can afford it. The fees are about £9k per year for junior and £12k for senior. Assuming we therefore need to find £1k per month for fees

My cheeky question is this - if you have a child at private school, what does your household earn and how difficult is it to find the money each month to pay the fees? Our income is about £60k, and at the moment I don't think we can do it (along with our other current expenses). Wages might go up a bit before we would need to start paying, but if this is always going to be a pipe dream i'd rather get over it now

I know we could move closer to a good state school, but am exploring my options at this stage. Don't really want to move, as we have a good house here and are settled

Thanks for reading

I am always fascinated by how many private school parents seem to live in the catchment of extraordinarily awful state schools. Considering that most troubled state schools are in areas of significant social deprivation, what are these affluent middle class people doing there?

I've seen this said on here before and the implication seems to be that private school parents are just dismissing their decent local school out of hand. I would give people more credit than that. The answer is probably that a school that is fine for one child/family might be extraordinarily awful for another. Also that a school that is fine now may have been awful a few years ago and so there will be parents who left then and are educating privately despite being in the catchment of a 'good' school.

So we started at our village school in an area that is about as far from socially deprived as possible. If you asked around our village you would hear that the school recently got an OFSTED good rating. That there is a very nice community feel. Everyone knows everyone, can walk to friends' houses, goes to the park after school etc. The school is in a beautiful location with lots of playing fields. I.e. everything you want. All of that is true.

Our experience, however, was extraordinarily awful. The school had utterly ineffective leadership and went into special measures with 4s in all categories just after we arrived. The school had coasted for years on the back of the 'nice' catchment. The children were a year ahead when starting but below the national average on leaving (according to OFSTED). There were no effective strategies for behaviour, DS was horribly bullied and the school acknowledged that but essentially said that there was not much they could do as the child was difficult to control (son of a banker with a house with a pool so social deprivation not the issue!). DS said the class was always disrupted and there was no way of getting the teacher's attention if you were on his table. They were so bad at controlling behaviour that they called the police several times in one term when year 6 children got out of control. There were 5 heads (mainly temporary and part-time) in the 7 terms we were there so they had no time to really focus on the wider problems. The SATS pressure was horrible because it was the way out of special measures and it sucked any glimmer of joy out of the place.

So yes we had an 'extraordinarily awful' experience in a 'naice' area and are now privately educating despite being in the catchment of a 'good' school. A good chunk of people at our current school have also started state, had awful experiences and left.

Sorry OP these threads always get derailed. IF you do move to the 'nice' school catchment do just be a little careful that you don't spend so much that you deprive yourself of options if it doesn't go well. We picked our house because it was in the catchment of this school but things had changed considerably (long-standing head retired) 5 years later when we started.

"Having said that, with two 'equal' parents, which child is more likely to get into a Russel Group Uni or get the top A levels"

Can no one see what's problematic with a statement such as this? Apart from the pressure this sort of attitude puts on young people (something which I see in my work all the time) do you have no conception of the fact that for some people getting 'top A levels' or going to 'Russell group universities' are not priorities / goals and certainly not seen as inherently better than other options?

Tess I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience.

I disagree with you though as to your general point. I think a lot of parents do discount perfectly good enough state schools at their doorstep without having any awful experiences. The reason is very simple as some people have been open enough to say in this thread. For some people, it's all about who you know (and consequently who you don't want to mix wirh). Let's not pretend it's otherwise. It's quite offensive to paint state school with dire colours to avoid saying the blindingly obvious: for some people, it's the people who go there who are to be avoided.

My kids go private for no other reason than I want them to.

No one needs to justify not choosing state. It's a free country.

Ah well there is the rub - I the lawyer do indeed want my children to get top A levels and go to an RG or similar university as probably does this doctor original poster. "do you have no conception of the fact that for some people getting 'top A levels' or going to 'Russell group universities' are not priorities / goals and certainly not seen as inherently better than other options?" of course we see that but we might even choose to have our children educated with other chidlren who similarly want that as their aim. Now if the child takes a different course that's fine - 3 of mine won music scholarships. If music became all consuming and they went to music college instead because that was what they chose that's not a problem for me. If they wanted to drop out and become a buddhist monk - fine but I'd rather they got their education finished first so they had something to fall back on. If your whole peer group - ie just about everyone in the school is going to a good RG university that helps as most teenagers are a bit lazy and do what their friends do, not all but many. If you can buy a peer group which largely has your values you are often almost home and dry.

I live in a very mixed London borough and I just want the children at school with very very hard workers of the same gender (I like single sex schooling) and who are reasonable bright ( selective entry) with our work ethic (thank God for the immigrants - best peer group there is and I love paying school fees to be exposed to their good influence) and family values.

However in terms of careers after it is not relaly who you know in things like medicine and law. You only get through the door if you have really really good exam results (and yes you can certainly get those at many a state school) and that's lovely. I am very much behind the improvement in London state schools. Competition is good and the better the state schools are the more the private schools will up their game - it is all good.

Different parents have different motivations for paying fees.

What we have in common, is paying for choice.

I'm sure many parents do discount good state schools on their doorstep and I am sure that quite a few private school parents have enough money/fees from elsewhere that they never both looking elsewhere. I wasn't meaning to suggest otherwise. Instead I am objecting to the idea that when people say that they had to go private because their local state was poor then they are being disingenuous. I think people should be given more credit than that. As a small sample size, the majority of DS's friends at school either started state and had a bad time or had an older sibling who did so. Actually one friend had a similar poor experience at a private school and moved because of that. In most of these cases (as ours) it is difficult to find places at alternative state schools, especially if there is more than one child, so the family have made significant changes to move to private e.g. SAHM retraining and going back to work.

The point of the anecdote was to explain how a school might seem 'good' outside (and may actually be good now) but may have been awful for those who left. That can have a long term effect. I know a lot of people in our village who went private/home schooled in the same period and will keep that for younger children so the impact of that one poor time will probably be about a decade of these children not going to the local 'good' school.

sorry that was to stillloving

We didn't discount any good schools, we don't have any round here.
There are no grammar schools for the bright, no ss academic schools, one private school in the next town that is full.

If for some reason it didn't work out for dd at her present school we would have to H.ed, because we live in a deprived area.
The area is what it is whether you are wc or mc.

There are plenty of mc workers who live in deprived areas because their work just happens to be there. They may need a large house and not able to afford one in a better area. There are all kinds of reasons why they might live in a deprived area.

Why can't you discount a good school? Why can't you live next door to an outstanding comp, and still choose private?

It makes literally no sense to me that people seem to have a problem with this.

Iris

It is jealousy or most often. I've yet to be convinced differently.
Some people can't abide the fact that you might have something that they don't have, or can't afford or access.
They dress it up in all sorts of comments like how unfair it is for others, how they couldn't do it because it's morally wrong.
I don't buy it I'm afraid.
I don't care who goes private, grammar, state, ss, H.ed, or any other school.
Even if you can't access a good school so what, it's the way of the world, has always been the same, and doesn't look to change anytime soon.

I don't have a problem with "because I want to" or "because I want all the extras that go with private education" or (in the case of a top 5) "because of the advantages that sort of education gives" or "because I don't want my children mixing with the kids from the estate" What I find frustrating is the justifying that goes on!

And anyway, my issue is never with the individuals who use private schools, it's with the system as a whole. I have just as much-actually more- of a problem with state selective schools.

"It is jealousy or most often. I've yet to be convinced differently."

Utter, utter bollocks. I find the attitude that people can't object to inequality because inequality is intrinsically wrong and that that must be jealous or bitter or all the other words the hard of thinking use to describe anyone who is more public spirited than them utterly outrageous. I guess it just makes people feel better about their "I'm all right Jack" attitude.

Gosh, this thread has become very political.

oP if you think that your dd would enjoy your old school, please also look at what the other factors are that differentiate her from you.

You in effect went to your local school. She will not.
You had money to travel as a child, she will not if you're already worried about fees on a lone income.

I think you're being misty eyed, and potentially blinkered.
IMO a local school is best, fees or not, as your child makes friends with her neighbours.

I would seriously think about moving, or renting in the catchment for your local primary, and forget about paying for a school which will limit your DDs social life.
As an only child she will need friends and extra activities in case pals at school aren't as nice as you might hope through your rose tinted glasses.

Think about your child and what she needs. She's an only so will need extra activities, she'll need frisds from around and about to play with and she'll need time to play.
She'll need holidays too, and while you are happy with a cottage here and there, she'll be in a class where skiing happens every midterm. How will she feel being "the poor one" in a private school, who goes to a little cottage in the middle of nowhere?

I think you're not actually thinking about this from your DDs perspective at all, and I think you might serve her better by thinking about what an only child on a relatively low income (wrt other children in a public school) might need.

I'd move, or rent nearer the state school, and forget about the far away private. As an only child, shell need a social life and extra activities to make friends out of school. She won't get that in a car for hours everyday, and on a relatively lower income.

Carry on with the bun fight the rest of you!

Believe me the 'skiing end of every term' is something I don't see much evidence of at dd school.

Many DC seem to have cottage holidays and camping holidays.

The Skiing and Glam hols abroad seems to be a generalisation and not always the case.

I adored my cottage type hols in the middle of nowhere as a DC and still do now.

By earning pots of cash but it is still a struggle to be honest.

You have the headline cost of the fees but you will not only have the extra's like school lunches, uniforms and trips [all fairly minor but will add circa £5-600 pa at junior school level] but you will also have the cost of wrap around childcare and fulltime childcare for 12-14 weeks of school holidays per annum.

We have two in an independent school at circa £4k per term, the bits and pieces on top and an additional £20kpa to a childminder. All after tax of course. It's gobsmacking and keeps me awake at night. I didn't go to private school and I'm not sure I am fully signed up to it, but frankly as a non UK citizen it's the lessor of two evils than worrying about 11+'s and SATs and all the other shite.

There are two many variables - the size of your mortgage, car finance if any, lifestyle generally.
If you can put away £1000 a month now plus childcare costs then you will be able to manage fine. 45 mins commute each way at primary level is too far though imo and private schools often start much earlier than state so you could be talking about leaving the house by 7.30am each morning fully washed, dressed and breakfasted. It's a long day and then no local friends.

If you have suitable skills why not look at volunteering as a school governor?
www.sgoss.org.uk/volunteers.html

bert but you never seem to have any issues with the inequality of state selectives when it comes to selection by postcode

"bert but you never seem to have any issues with the inequality of state selectives when it comes to selection by postcode"

Yes I do. I think selection should be by fair banding, if a way can be found dot do it completely "blind" or by lottery.

But the buying into a catchment thing only applies in some areas. The idea that the only people who are happy with state education go to "leafy" schools is a Mumsnet myth.

Sorry- admission, not selection.

There is a local day school to us that is £7k a year and that includes before and after school care from 7.30am to 6.15pm where they get dinner and breakfast as well. Factor in that if you are used to paying full time nursery place, the fact that you would only have to feed them at weekends if you wish (as the rest is factored in) and you're not additionally paying out for before and after school clubs it's manageable for us.

Bert

So what is it if not jealousy?
Ignorance? Spite? I think most of the vitriol towards private education comes from one of these.

Those people saying they wouldn't use private because of moral reasons would soon change their minds if they could afford it and were surrounded by failing schools, decades of failing schools, with no alternative.

You are right, it's bollocks, the whole argument.

I sent DD private for part of her primary and all of her secondary education and I am actually not sure it was worth the money, even though the schools she went to are highly regarded generally. So I haven't bothered with the other kids. Bear in mind I am in and out of schools of all kinds all the time with work, and I've worked in both sectors, so I have a pretty good idea what goes on. But I would say it depends what the schools are like locally to you.

I should add that one truth that doesn't speak its name is that some of the better teachers seem to be defecting from the private sector around here, and the ones that replace them haven't cut the mustard in the state sector and resigned before they were booted out. This is not something I thought I would ever see happening and it's made me pretty thoughtful about all the recent changes.

"So what is it if not jealousy?
Ignorance? Spite? I think most of the vitriol towards private education comes from one of these"

Vitriol? Oh, purhlease.........!