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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think seven Caesareans in eight years is a recipe for disaster?

427 replies

ElizabethG81 · 29/05/2016 21:04

What's happened to this woman is horrific, but surely having so many Caesareans in such a short period of time is recklessness bordering on insanity? www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3615027/Mother-eight-relives-nightmare-waking-C-section-discover-legs-amputated.html

OP posts:
leghoul · 03/06/2016 17:20

I have to say I agree with expat and am quite staggered by your replies gone. expat shared a very painful experience to contextualise her perspective, one that I agree with having experienced similar, and which I'm grateful to expat for being willing to share, and I think that your attitude is really damaging to others for apportioning blame on the very valid and pertinent disclosure of lived experience, but that's another thread

EatsShitAndLeaves · 03/06/2016 17:23

I have to say I agree with expat and am quite staggered by your replies gone. expat shared a very painful experience to contextualise her perspective, one that I agree with having experienced similar, and which I'm grateful to expat for being willing to share, and I think that your attitude is really damaging to others for apportioning blame on the very valid and pertinent disclosure of lived experience, but that's another thread
*
^^*
This - in spades....

WellErrr · 03/06/2016 17:44

Agree mango.

goneto, the only appropriate response for you to have made there was 'I'm so sorry.'

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 03/06/2016 18:19

No. They didn't. I apologised and you're the only person who can't drop it.

I wouldn't want to argue about anything to do with my child if I were in your situation. And I'm not going to argue with someone in your position, either.

I'm out.

expatinscotland · 03/06/2016 18:23

Um, they did. And you're not in my situation. But anyhow, you're out so it doesn't matter. Confused

WellErrr · 03/06/2016 18:51

Still sticking the boot in on the way out Shock

Ffs gone, have a word.

Ifiwasabadger · 03/06/2016 20:06

I would just like to say that i had an ELCS and not once did my consultant ever mention anything about risks with subsequent pregnancies and sections.

mamadoc · 04/06/2016 00:07

Gone- You see it as very black and white. One recommended check may have been missed therefore her legs may have been saved. It's not so straightforward. Her legs may not have been salvageable whatever anyone did. The biggest surprise is that she's alive.

What I am trying to say is that if you are in a high risk situation all bets are off. You might wind up in that situation like expats daughter or you might put yourself there like this lady.

The overwhelming likelihood in this case is that she would die. Anything better than that is a blessing. The loss of her legs was a complication of efforts to save her life.

Of course we don't expect gratitude for routine care. We don't even expect it for life saving care. We don't expect any thanks at all even where the person incurred the risk. We just don't like to get sued and blamed for saving a life. If she'd died with her legs intact would they sue?

sleeponeday · 04/06/2016 11:35

Gone you have a fucking nerve. You (reasonably) challenged me when I posted inappropriately to a poster whose own posts constantly teeter on the edge of goady fuckerdom, and I conceded that it was a fair challenge. You post horrendously crassly here and when challenged, become defensive and aggressive to a bereaved parent and snippy with anyone challenging your own piss-poor behaviour.

You need to take a look at yourself.

Expat I didn't see the clusterfuck on here until now. I'm so very sorry you've had to deal with it.

sleeponeday · 04/06/2016 11:35

Mama and the other HCP, thanks for clarifying the medical situation.

PrimalLass · 06/06/2016 19:29

I would just like to say that i had an ELCS and not once did my consultant ever mention anything about risks with subsequent pregnancies and sections.

I had the fear of god put into me about a second section once I was pregnant with #2, and was told I would be extremely foolish to go for a third section.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 06/06/2016 21:56

Maybe after one it might not have been mentioned though I am very surprised

It most certainly would have after your third, fourth and fifth

And surely people read up on operations that they choose to have

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 07/06/2016 09:58

mamadoc No, I don't see it as black and white in that sense. I'm aware that one check may have made no difference and in that respect the dialogue is useless because no one knows what the responsibilities the hospital had to carry out checks, what was recommended etc.. So that is certainly black and white. The only thing that should be crystal clear is that, if there is a specified check that isn't carried out, the hospital has failed to carry out that check and they are accountable for it. (It is for someone else to decide the importance of that failure-I don't know and you don't really know either). Being accountable means that you don't necessarily have the mistake overlooked in favour of what you did get right. The world doesn't work that way any other profession and it shouldn't in medicine either.

And don't even me started on the revelations that the junior doctors' 'only red line' was not unsafe shift patterns but their own Saturday rate of pay, or that they privately had no wish for Jeremy Hunt to come back to the table while telling the media that they only wanted to solve things through through consultation ('if he came back tomorrow we'd have nothing to say') and publicly bemoaning the strike action they felt 'forced' to take, apparently on behalf of the people, while privately agreeing that 'the best solution' (presumably to get their higher rate of pay since that was the only thing they wouldn't compromise on in any eventuality) could be to 'draw out' the strike action for as long as possible, even as long as eighteen months. So basically junior doctors were prepared to put patients at risk to keep their Saturday pay is what all that adds up to. As long as that was place, they could be bought on the other issues directly affecting patients.

This is worlds away from the picture you painted of the hearts and minds of junior doctors on other threads and frankly, your credibility is irreparably damaged as far as I'm concerned.

Sleep I have nothing to say to you. I apologised and explained to expat and she responded to that with a refusal and accusations. Her choice-I'm certainly not engaging with, talking further about, or continuing a spat with someone in her circumstances. My rebuke to you on another thread has nothing to do with it.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 07/06/2016 10:17

certainly not black and white

mamadoc · 07/06/2016 18:21

Gone- I'm not aware of these 'revelations' of which you speak. How are you so sure that they are the gospel truth.

Anyway I don't intend rehashing the junior Drs strike debate again on this thread.

I am sometimes tempted to post about medical stuff because it interests me (the way law interests lawyers I expect) and I think it's sometimes interesting to hear an 'inside view' the same as teachers do in school threads but it's only ever my own opinion. I don't purport to represent all Drs and I never give out medical advice.

You can say what you like about my 'credibility'. Do you mean that you think I'm lying or that I have a political agenda because honestly neither are true?

mamadoc · 07/06/2016 18:30

I have never attempted to 'paint a picture of the hearts and minds of junior Drs'

That would be a stupid thing to try to do as they all have different hearts and minds.

Isn't it pretty bad form to bring up someone's previous posts on a largely unrelated topic to attack them??

Sincerely I think you should stop now because you appear to be just lashing out at people who disagree with you and it's backfiring.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 07/06/2016 20:48

I bet you don't wish to rehash it. You haven't got a leg to stand on!

Yes actually, you have painted a very different picture of the attitudes, priorities and intentions of junior doctors in relation to their strike action and their profession, mamadoc, though I can't be bothered to trawl through various threads to pinpoint all the times you (and others of course) have said:

  • the priority for junior doctors wasn't the money, it was never about the money.
  • it was primarily about the welfare of patients (due to unsafe shift patterns) and the future of the NHS.
  • junior doctor were reasonable, transparent and desperately wanted to negotiate rather than strike, they'd negotiate tomorrow if they were allowed to.
  • junior doctors wanted to strike as little as possible and would only do so as a very last resort, in order to achieve a new deal in which patients would be safer.

The strike action was presented to the public as something that was primarily being carried out for the welfare of patients and the NHS. We were repeatedly reassured that doctors were not primarily concerned (if at all) about their pay packet. We were encouraged to support the strike action because junior doctors told Britain they were striking for the people and refusing to budge over issues relating to their safety.

Now we find that the junior doctor leadership of the BMA was freely acknowledging, on an internal level, that things were different. Their priorities, their reasons for striking, their 'non-negotiable' issues were not as put portrayed. Their manipulation of public perception was conscious and deceptive. They privately agreed the real sticking point was Saturday pay but that they needed the moral high ground.

These 'revelations' (which I cannot believe you haven't heard of - google it) have Dr Johann Malawana saying that they had to 'play the political game of always looking reasonable' while 'drawing this [strike] right out'. The former chair of the junior doctor's BMA leadership committee stated that Saturday pay was 'the only real red line' that (rather than patients suffering) '99% of junior doctors told us they were upset about'. Although publicly pretending they were desperate to talk instead of strike, they agreed internally that 'even if they came back tomorrow we'd have nothing to talk about' because Saturday pay wasn't on the agenda for discussion.

So basically junior doctors were prepared to play a political game in which patients and the NHS would suffer through extended strike action until such time as the issue of Saturday pay was addressed to their satisfaction. Junior doctors portrayed themselves as champions of the NHS and completely unconcerned about the Saturday pay issue relative to unsafe shift patterns. In fact, it now seems that shift patterns would have been accepted regardless of the implications for the patients if the price was right.

When one considers that the mantra going through this spring has been 'its not about the money' and 'it's everyone's fight' and 'Jeremy Hunt is a liar', the only thing we can conclusively establish is that everyone was playing games and no one had the moral high ground, including those clutching their stethoscopes on picket lines.

Which is all pretty much the opposite of the impression you and others like you put across mama. So I don't know about your kindly impressions of the stellar job that must have been done for the poor lady who lost her legs. A stellar job might have been done. It might not. If it wasn't, there should be accountability. No one deserves the moral high ground. No one is above having questions asked about their truthfulness and performance. Anyone can make mistakes, be incompetent, and lie.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 07/06/2016 20:53

And I don't know what you mean about back-firing. I'm not a junior doctor out trying to win support and my comments are relevant to a long-running debate that you have extensively contributed to. When reading about the leak, I thought at the time that it was relevant to the discontinued thread. There is no OP with personal circumstances to consider here.

PurpleRainDiamondsandPearls · 07/06/2016 22:46

gonetoseeamanaboutadog Carrying over issues from other threads make you look slightly unhinged. Clearly, you bear a grudge.

I find it interesting to hear a medical perspective. Mamadoc has been insightful and fair. You, on the other hand, disrespected another poster and flounced when you got called out,

mamadoc · 07/06/2016 22:49

Since you know so much about me you'll know that I'm not a junior Dr so I stood to lose (by covering their work) rather than gain anything from the strike. I don't have any skin in that particular game.

If you want to have yet another debate about the junior Drs strike then post a thread about it rather than hijack this one.

The connection to this thread is tenuous and I'm suggesting that it's a personal attack on me to say that I 'lack credibility'

Sometimes there are unavoidable complications of high risk procedures, sometimes mistakes are made that are non- negligent, sometimes Drs are negligent and occasionally even malicious. I have never sought to defend all Drs all of the time but I will continue to say that most of them are doing their best most of the time because I believe that to be true from my experience.

My intention in posting on this thread was just to put some context that I thought was lacking from the original report and correct some misconceptions about medical facts eg that this was an arterial embolus not a DVT.

mamadoc · 07/06/2016 22:52

Purple- thanks

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 08/06/2016 21:25

Fair enough mama but as someone who tried to believe you in the things you said about junior doctors on previous threads, in light of the recent leak (which didn't support your claims to put it mildly) I found it difficult to swallow yet again your assertion that it was such a pity to criticise people who were bound to have been working so hard and deserved thanks really. No, they should be accountable like anyone else is.

The only thing I remember about you is that you're a consultant and you live in a council house.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 08/06/2016 21:33

purple What I find interesting is the fact that the recent leak has compromised the credibility of doctors generally insofar as they clearly have a party line and very little interest in transparency. They also seem to feel entitled to the moral high ground and this is something that I, for one, will strenuously resist from no one. Yes, it does touch a nerve that there is this idea that doctors are martyrs and as patients, we are wrong to question or criticise them because we should shut up and be thankful. If that's a grudge, so be it.

If mama wishes to comment generally about anyone potentially criticising the hospital in question on the grounds she gave (they were sure to have been working hard) I'll say why I don't think the medical profession deserves this kind of unquestioning docility from the public at large. The strikes were a scandal.

I don't have anything against mama and, as illustrated, know next to nothing about her except a scrap of two that she has freely shared.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 08/06/2016 21:33

now on not no one

Saramel · 08/06/2016 23:08

mamadoc Sorry for the late reply but no, it wasn't against medical advice at all. In fact, I was convinced I would not be able to have another C-section because when I had to have the first one, I was told I would only be able to have 3. When my womb started to rupture and my baby died, I was hysterical not least because I thought that was the end of my dream of having another baby which we had been trying for for many years and had ICSI to get that one. When I said I wouldn't be able to have another, they were adamant that they would make sure I would. I readily admit that I put my head in the sand about the Placenta Acreta but I think you would have had to walk in my shoes to understand how desperate I was.
expatinscotland I don't think I mentioned suing, it would depend on the level of negligence.