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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think seven Caesareans in eight years is a recipe for disaster?

427 replies

ElizabethG81 · 29/05/2016 21:04

What's happened to this woman is horrific, but surely having so many Caesareans in such a short period of time is recklessness bordering on insanity? www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3615027/Mother-eight-relives-nightmare-waking-C-section-discover-legs-amputated.html

OP posts:
gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 02/06/2016 22:08

I am not especially grateful to my lawyer who has worked very hard and pulled all-nighters. He was doing his job and he signed up for it.

OllyBJolly · 02/06/2016 22:30

Litigation involves expert witnesses, barristers etc and it would cost more to litigate

In our case, the hospital agreed to settle, without admitting liability. They ask us to propose a figure. Legal aid is approved, and our lawyer commissions 7 expert witnesses plus barrister over 3.5 years to reach a figure. The total legal aid bill is currently £150k. The lawyer has requested further expert witness reports but the complainant has refused on grounds that this has gone on too long for very little gain. The sum on the table is £70k.

Who wins? Legal aid comes out the public purse. Legal expenses will be paid by NHS =public purse. The compensation is paid out by NHS=public purse. Complainant's £70k is used to repay benefits claimed - cost neutral to public purse. The only winner under the current system is the law firm. The surgeon has been "medically retired" before case started as a result of previous negligence case in similar circumstances.

Avoiding litigation does not mean a quicker, cheaper, easier settlement.

WellErrr · 02/06/2016 22:46

I do not understand why doctors expect gratitude for doing their job.

Takeaway - 'here's your chicken korma'
Me - 'thank you'

Cleaner - 'I've done xxx today and will get xxx done next week'
Me - 'thank you'

Teacher - 'your child has done so well in xxx this week, they're really improving'
Me - 'lovely. And thank you for all the extra help you've given'

Doctor - 'good news, the caesarean went well. We had to remove some scar tissue but everything's fine and your baby is healthy'
Me - 'WELL WHAT DO YOU WANT, A FUCKING MEDAL!?'

I think not Hmm

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 02/06/2016 23:01

Yes, well obviously you say thank you.

But if the chicken korma gives you food poisoning do you say 'Never mind, you clearly tried hard and thank you for cooking the rice so well'?

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 02/06/2016 23:01

I think not. Grin

Hodooooooooor · 02/06/2016 23:11

You don't see why drs might expect some gratitude for saving peoples lives? For spending years training and working insane hours to be in the position where they can do that?
Hmm What kind of git doesn't see that?

WellErrr · 02/06/2016 23:12

No but that's not what happened. The doctors were put in a very difficult position and did what they could.

More like 'can you make me a chicken korma? But be aware that due to excess chicken kormas I'm now allergic to most of the ingredients and have been told not to have any more. But I want one so please get it right.'

I do feel for her, to reiterate - but I also feel very sorry for the HCPs involved.

Jeezypeepers · 03/06/2016 00:05

Another HCP here based in ITU who wholeheartedly agrees with mamadoc. From a medical point of view it is difficult to see HOW exactly the monitoring doctors/nurses were supposed to have discovered an arterial thrombus in SUCH an unwell ventilated patient before things got to the stage of emergency surgery. Other than checking foot pulses (which are often not great in a profoundly unwell, massively hypotensive and presumable very swollen patient who has recently had major abdominal surgery anyway) it is a radiological diagnosis and often a tricky one to make in someone so unwell. If the lady was ill enough that her doctors were doing all they could to battle DIC and save her life then checking for distal pulses may have taken a back seat to major resuscitation. Which is fair enough. As PP have said, she is indeed extremely lucky to be alive. DIC can have very poor outcomes.

Gasman: was it definitely two discrete clots? I wondered if it has perhaps been a single one at a bifurcation.

expatinscotland · 03/06/2016 01:04

'I wondered if it has perhaps been a single one at a bifurcation.'

Then it's possible for it to have travelled up and into the opposite lower limb?

My only experience of ICU was my daughter, who was a paed and also extremely ill from cancer and sitting two infections in her lungs.

It's very full on and 1:1 in ICU.

She was ventilated, oscillating vent 100% towards the end, and there were issues with pressure, pressure sores, etc. Being ventilated is not like being asleep. There are many, many complications that can occur as a result of such treatment.

She presented with a clot during physio, crashed and was resussed (she died two days later from respiratory failure of pneumonia). That is how quickly it came about. She was very ill, ventilated patients in ICU are. Before she went under for it we were advised that she might die. The consultant on duty spoke to me and made a character judgement of me, he allowed me to stay as she was put under for it, something that is not standard. I heard him appointing who was to do what if she crashed. I am eternally grateful to him. That was the last time I ever saw my child alive, and he didn't have to do that.

I am grateful to her doctors and nurses, even though she died, even though I know they signed up for all-nighters, unsociable hours, what have you.

I worked for years in the legal field, too. I've seen some incredible people and some utter sheisters, like any other field. They all signed up for unsociable hours and all-nighters, but most of the clients were grateful because it's a skill they don't have themselves that the lawyer provided for them. And the entire team.

It will all come out in court if it gets that far, and there again, unless you've been sitting in that court room day after day, you really have no idea.

They did their best to save her and I am still, 4 years on, grateful for their efforts and have sent them written letters to express that.

There's a big difference between could have died and dead.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 03/06/2016 08:07

How terrible for you expat. I hope your dd is fully recovered.

The being grateful thing is a bit of a red herring and pointless to discuss without knowing exactly what the hospital didn't do. Mamadoc appeared to be suggesting in one breath that there may have been overlooked instructions to do specific tests but at the end of the day, the patient had been foolhardy and should have been grateful to the staff that she was alive. My point was not to be against gratefulness as such, but against the idea that hospitals deserve our humble thanks for what they manage to get right, rather than being held accountable for what they get wrong. This seems to be a very emotional and vague sense of entitlement among the medical profession at large and is nuts.

If specific tests were ordered and not carried out, the fool hardiness of the patient is neither here nor there because the hospital acted incompetently. It could have been the patient's first section in that case, for all the relevance that her personal choices have to the situation. She could have had complex issues were nothing to do with her choices and have found herself in this situation. Feeling in an emotional sort of way that she was taking a risk and the hospital was working hard so really they deserve praise and the patient had it coming....all bollocks really. You do tests that have been ordered and if you don't, you have failed the patient and failed to be competent.

expatinscotland · 03/06/2016 11:24

'How terrible for you expat. I hope your dd is fully recovered.'

Um, my post says it all. She's been dead for nearly 4 years.

gasman · 03/06/2016 11:39

It wasn't me questioning two discrete clots. I was envisaging something pretty major In the pelvis affecting both legs.

We won't know until it goes to court having spoken to solicitor friends- rare complication of life saving emergency procedure performed infrequently which even if recognized isn't easy to fix especially with everything else we think was going on. Not sure she will get far with causation.

WellErrr · 03/06/2016 11:44

FFS gonetosee Angry

So sorry expat Flowers

Floggingmolly · 03/06/2016 11:45

Jesus, gonetosee, please read properly before you decide to comment on someone's post in future. That was beyond crass Hmm

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 03/06/2016 12:25

I'm sorry that I missed that, expat.

I have lost a number of close relatives and feel unable to read the level of detail you included in your post, as much as I sympathise. Not everyone is in a place where their own life circumstances mean they can cope with hearing about it, which is why I wouldn't open a thread about that topic at the moment. Consequently I was able only to read that your dd had been very ill, and to most sincerely hope she recovered. I really am so sorry that it was not the case.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 03/06/2016 12:26

Flogging, mind your own please.

Jeezypeepers · 03/06/2016 12:44

expat I am so, so unbelievably sorry that you went through that Sad.

To answer your question about clots; if they are in the venous system then they can move and migrate but arterial clots wouldn't be able to move or go from one leg to the other as the further down the leg they get the smaller the vessels are so they get 'stuck' IYSWIM. Like gasman said it is more likely that there was a blockage at pelvic level, such as a large clot or from putting in instruments or lines to try and help with blood pressure or 'catch' existing clots.

It is more than frustrating that in situations like this the general public are only offered one, very emotive, side of things and those clinicians actually involved in this lady's care are unable to counter these accusations with the truth. Although obviously not impossible, the likelyhood of an ITU patient simply being 'left' for 6 hours is almost zero; they are quite literally watched at all times. If a nurse in my unit needs to go and get a bit of kit she cannot walk away from the patient's bed space until another nurse is free to watch that patient. This assumption by the Fail and others that patients could be left to fester unnattended is quite simply not true.

Apologies gasman I thought you had separate clots; I must have read it somewhere else.

leghoul · 03/06/2016 13:57

Confused gonetosee

agree causation could sink this quite easily

also agree with expat that even when things go abominably wrong, with a dreadful outcome, you can still be grateful for the efforts of medical staff

expatinscotland · 03/06/2016 15:00

Although obviously not impossible, the likelyhood of an ITU patient simply being 'left' for 6 hours is almost zero; they are quite literally 'watched at all times. If a nurse in my unit needs to go and get a bit of kit she cannot walk away from the patient's bed space until another nurse is free to watch that patient. This assumption by the Fail and others that patients could be left to fester unnattended is quite simply not true.'

This ^.

gone Hmm. I stated that my daughter is dead in that post early on, but instead you go and blame me for my 'level of detail' for the fact that you didn't read my post properly because it was more important for you to be right and play the solicitor. Nice.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 03/06/2016 15:55

Fine, if that's how you wish to see it, expat. I'm not blaming you for anyone and my apologies were given sincerely. But have it your way. You have no idea what anyone else has gone through either.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 03/06/2016 15:57

anything, rather.

expatinscotland · 03/06/2016 16:02

Yep, that's how it came across to me, and apparently, I'm not alone in that sentiment. But if it makes you feel better to keep on scorning me and assigning negative character flaws to me (of course I have no idea what anyone else has gone through unless they make that known Hmm), please, carry on. You're doing a great job of making things all about you.

Yeah, fuck gratitude.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 03/06/2016 16:09

I don't think anyone has agreed with you about my response to your post expat, nor has (or will) anyone blamed you. I don't know what you're talking about - no one is ascribing negative character flaws to you - the only one making judgements about other posters is yourself. So why don't you stop. Let's move past it. If I were you, I would want to.

expatinscotland · 03/06/2016 16:51

Um, three other posters did. But please, carry on playing the lawyer. You're very good at twisting anything to suit your own aims. Hmm

'Let's move past it. If I were you, I would want to.'

You're not me.

MangoMoon · 03/06/2016 17:14

gone it's not the first thread where you've twisted words or (wilfully?) misinterpreted things to suit your agenda.
#justsaying

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