Your thoughts please - for the sake of interest

[AuntJane]

Following on from the "mumtitlement" thread, I wonder what your views are on this, which happened in my office a year ago.

Work team where no more than two people are allowed to have leave at the same time, to provide cover.

Eight months in advance, childless female books a certain Thursday and Friday off. This is approved by the manager.

Two weeks in advance, childless devout Muslim female requests the Thursday off as it is Eid. She could not book the actual day any earlier because the actual date had not been declared.

On the same day, mother of two under 10's asks for the Thursday off on the grounds that her children's school has announced it will be closed for the day as over 50% of children (and a fair number of staff) will be celebrating Eid and whatever is done that day will need to be repeated.

Who gets the day off, and who doesn't?

I disagree with this sweeping statement. Wanting to celebrate a special day is quite different from needing to care for little ones that cannot care for themselves.

By that logic no child free person would ever get time off if done one with children happened to want the same day. I appreciate not everyone has easy access to childcare, but is it fair that I was always the one to lose out on because other people in my team happened to have Fallopian tubes that functioned as nature intended?

Purple - my argument here is not that people with children should take precedence over people without children. My argument is that sometimes the reasons behind the request makes one person more deserving of taking that particular day. In this case one lady wants to take the day off (let's face it no-one will die if they can't have a celebration day) The other ladies need to take the day off - because they have someone that depends on them. Like I said before, the other alternative is that the workplace welcomes the children in for the day, or that the parents take unpaid leave / phone in sick. Either way, if the parents can't get childcare then they have no option - the other lady does have an option, even if it's not one that she would choose.

The other ladies need to take the day off - because they have someone that depends on them.

No, they want to take the day off so they can do the childcare themselves. I appreciate childcare is not always easy to come by, but if you're a working parent you need to have a plan for those days when you can't take a day off. To assume your request will take precedence over someone else's will lead to bad feeling in the team and I'd hope sensible HR departments would not allow that attitude to continue.

first come first served. cut and dry that way, no special treatment for kids / religion.
We have the same policy at our work
I am assuming Muslim lady and childcare lady didn't ask at exactly the same moment, one person's request / email would have been before the other. You can't rate whose request is more "worthy"

Forgot to add I've been in that situation-holiday booked in the summer with my dh who is a teacher so we can't be off together any other time. Massive guilt trip from the same woman who called me a nasty piece of work for not working Christmas for the third time in a row because her children were off and she didn't have childcare.

yes, perhaps she'll have to take unpaid leave. That's what sometimes happens when you choose to have children. The rest of the world doesn't have to kowtow to your fecundity.

I bet you anything you like loads of Muslim people work over Christmas so their Christian or not very likely but anyway colleagues can have Chrisrmas and Easter off, and if they have a childcare issue too bad.

The person who booked it off first gets it surely

First here as well.
If they genuinely booked at the same time, I'd ask if they could agree between themselves. If they couldn't I'd probably toss a coin. I wouldn't want to be making a value judgement on what is important.

Regardless of the reasons why people want days off you will have had a situation before where more than one/two people wanted a day off. Also it is physically unlikely for woman 2 and 3 to have booked at the same time. Which ever one sent their request/email/form first gets annual leave.

"school has announced it will be closed for the day as over 50% of children (and a fair number of staff) will be celebrating Eid and whatever is done that day will need to be repeated."
Were I the mother of the children whose school was closing, I'd be kicking up merry hell with the school.

Obviously the person who booked holiday months ago gets the time off. As for the other two - both found out the date for Eid at the same time so couldn't request holiday before they did. Tough one. The devout Moslem would have anticipated that they would have wanted time off for Eid, the (presumably non-devout Moslem) mother did not anticipate Eid, unless the school had given parents a heads-up that this would be happening earlier. The devout person has a personal wish to have the time off, the mother a practical one.

Were I the mother, I'd be checking with my partner whether he could have the day off, and investigating other childcare options. Were I the devout person I'd be examining my conscience. Were I the manager I'd be tossing a coin!

'Examining my conscience'? What on earth does that mean?? Does everyone who wants Christmas off, regardless of whether they're actually Chritsian or not, go around examining their conscience? JFC.

When I was at primary school, everyone went to spend a day at their new secondary school except me. I was the only child in class. I was sent to another class and kept busy reading from the library. Bit much of the schools to complain about term time holidays and the detrimental effect of having even a day off - and then closing the school. If they can meet child:teacher ratios, then the school should stay open if it means mixing classes up for a day.

First come first served.

But I don't see why a religious reason should trump any other reason for time off, whatever the religion.

Bit much of the schools to complain about term time holidays and the detrimental effect of having even a day off - and then closing the school. If they can meet child:teacher ratios, then the school should stay open if it means mixing classes up for a day.

I agree-it's basically all about their attendance stats.

First come first served, regardless of reason; if two ask on the same day - still whoever asked first. In my office requests are online so you know to the second who was first.

if the woman whose school was closing asked before (even seconds before) the woman who wanted to celebrate Eid the celebrator would have to be turned down. There really is no alternative.

In fact: it is better if management don't even know why you want leave so that there can be no suggestion that one reason is being preferred over another.

First come, first served. Doesn't matter if the childless woman wants to sit in her pyjamas all day and watch Netflix, she gets to keep the holiday she booked without question.

Then, whoever asked first between the childcare issue woman or religious person.

It is the only fair way.

RiverTam by'examining my conscience' I meant that if you are a devout follower of a religion (any religion) then that religion will probably have teachings covering when you should sacrifice your devotions to the service of others. They all tend to have a selflessness requirement. A devotee could rationalise to themselves that they will be a better Moslem/Christian/Zoroastrian by sacrificing their celebration.

I do think it is odd that a manager should consider the reason behind the holiday leave request and somehow prioritise one above another using some rudimental reasoning. If someone wants to sit in a park and drink cider, that is up to them how they choose to use their holiday entitlement.

OP - what actually happened?

And why should this woman be 'in the service' of someone simply because they have children? Sorry, but underpinning what you're suggesting is that those who have kids come first.

They both have valid claims to the day. But in the absence of any suggestion that the mother has looked into all other possibilities (and as I say, give than half the class is affected, it seems unlikely her DC can't be with a chum for the day), I think the person who's significant religious day it is gets priority.

I think the person who's significant religious day it is gets priority

Why?

Should be whoever asked first on the day.

RiverTam not because she has children, but because there is someone, anyone in need of help that they could give. OP described person as 'devout'. IME devout people put others before themselves, it's part of their sense of devotion.

It would have to be first come first served for me too.

It's the only fair way.

Ideally though, it might have been nice for an exception to be made in this case and allow all three the day off. I have worked in places where only two are permitted to book leave at the same time - but inevitably, we always did cope if an extra person ended up being off sick or needing emergency leave (bereavement etc.)

If it could only be two though, the first two to ask. Without doubt.

Seems office has a clear policy on how many off at one time.

Person who booked first 8 months ago gets it.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong but dates for Eid seem to be available online years in advance?

First come, first served. The Muslim lady asked before the woman with children, therefore she gets priority. It's the only fair way to do it.

Having children doesn't give you priority when it comes to annual leave. Being organised and getting in first gives you priority!