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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to complain that DD had an Empire Day theme at Rainbows?

449 replies

DancesWithTimMinchin · 24/05/2016 21:54

DH is from a former colony. We don't think celebrating our history of colonisation is appropriate or inclusive. When we complained, the people who organise the Rainbow's didn't think there was anything inappropriate about celebrating Empire Day as a theme for a history-based afternoon.

AWBU?

OP posts:
Permanentlyexhausted · 26/05/2016 14:01

As a leader, you must know, I cannot bring my older or younger children to meetings while I am there for insurance purposes.

This is absolutely NOT true. Leaders can, if their Commissioners agree, bring their children to meetings and other events if they have to. Children of leaders attending guiding events absolutely are covered by Girlguiding insurance. Lucky really, or I'd have 25 very disappointed Brownies because I'd have to close my unit. One of my children isn't even the right sex to be in Girlguiding but he still comes to meetings and sits in the corner playing on his tablet.

Of course, not wanting to take on the responsibility of running a unit when you have children to consider is your prerogative and no-one should criticise you for making that choice but, please don't put other potential leaders/helpers off by saying that they can't do it if they can't leave their children with someone else.

budgiegirl · 26/05/2016 14:02

budgie, if you're introducing something to a group of children it shouldn't 'escape' you. You should make sure you know a bit about it. And since when was the only way to know or find out anything being taught it in school?

She probably just saw it as a good reason to dress up the kids and have a bit if fun. She made a mistake - she's only human. Has no one on here ever made a mistake? She , no doubt, spends a lot of time, week after week, planning a kids activity, and this one time she slips up, doesn't maybe do as much research as she should. It's unfortunate, but as I said, she's only human.

I agree the OP should raise it as a concern, but to call a volunteer thick and ignorant as some PPs have is uncalled for.

Permanentlyexhausted · 26/05/2016 14:06

BertrandRussell She may not have known it was going to happen until afterwards.

I think the OP did know before hand. She said they had twice referred to 'celebrating' it in formal communication with parents:

"the wording of the theme was celebrating Empire Day - they used it twice in formal communication with the parents."

SapphireStrange · 26/05/2016 14:19

budgie, she's in charge of kids, she's responsible; she needs to make sure she is informed about the things she's having them do. Yes, week after week.

'Slipping up' would be forgetting to bring in some stuff you'd promised for an activity, or putting the wrong date in an email to the group, or something. Not organising a whole activity without thinking at all about what it might mean.

And by definition, if she didn't know about the British Empire's historical and cultural context then she WAS ignorant of it. Which is quite easily fixed.

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 26/05/2016 14:20

I think it's worth pointing out that around 60% of people taking part in a recent survey were of the opinion that the British Empire was something to be proud of rather than ashamed of.

cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/6quatmbimd/Internal_Results_140725_Commonwealth_Empire-W.pdf

No, I don't agree with the sentiment - and I'm pretty sure most of those holding the view would change their opinion if they were to look into the matter in greater depth. But it's interesting to note how pervasive the attitude is.

As for the Rainbow leader, I can very well imagine her going home after the negative comment was made, spending a bit more time googling and coming away feeling uncomfortable about her choice. Whether she would acknowledge this is a moot point. But at least she would be in a position to quietly decide not to have another Empire Day next year.

Permanentlyexhausted · 26/05/2016 14:34

I agree with Budgie. In an ideal world the leader would have had time to fully research the theme she'd chosen but the reality of running a unit is never an ideal world.

If only it were as simple as think of a theme each week, do plenty of research, decide on an activity based around that theme.

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 14:50

People are behaving as if it's incredibly difficult to find out whether or not a British Empire celebration is appropriate in 2106.......

AgentPineapple · 26/05/2016 15:06

its history, it happened, nothing wrong with kids being taught about the past. We learned about WWII in school and about nazis etc it wasn't a nice bit of history but it's important for kids to know what happened. This is just the same.

MaudGonneMad · 26/05/2016 15:15

Did you dress up as Nazis and celebrate their achievements, AgentPineapple?

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 15:20

"nothing wrong with kids being taught about the past"

Couldn't agree more.

HamletsSister · 26/05/2016 15:25

Biscuit - that is an empire Biscuit

Just5minswithDacre · 26/05/2016 15:25

She probably just saw it as a good reason to dress up the kids and have a bit if fun. She made a mistake - she's only human. Has no one on here ever made a mistake? She , no doubt, spends a lot of time, week after week, planning a kids activity, and this one time she slips up, doesn't maybe do as much research as she should. It's unfortunate, but as I said, she's only human.*

I agree the OP should raise it as a concern, but to call a volunteer thick and ignorant as some PPs have is uncalled for.

Yes I'd go the concerns & positive suggestions route too (OP's DH could offer to lead a session) rather than complaints and recriminations. Honey, vinegar etc.

Permanentlyexhausted · 26/05/2016 15:33

People are behaving as if it's incredibly difficult to find out whether or not a British Empire celebration is appropriate in 2106.......

Not at all and it certainly isn't difficult to find out if that's what you're looking for. But in order to search for information about whether something is appropriate or not you would first need to have some sort of idea that it might not be. As others have said upthread, the Wikipedia article and many other sources do not give much of a hint about that.

I do think the leaders were rather ignorant or naïve but I doubt maliciously so.

Darrelrivers · 26/05/2016 15:36

Get a grip. It was a history activity. Stop being so anachronistic.

SapphireStrange · 26/05/2016 15:36

you would first need to have some sort of idea that it might not be

Yes, indeed. And TBH, I find it slightly surprising that she had no inkling about the negative side and repercussions of the British Empire, unless she's had her head in a paper bag all her adult life.

Just5minswithDacre · 26/05/2016 15:40

Yes, indeed. And TBH, I find it slightly surprising that she had no inkling about the negative side and repercussions of the British Empire, unless she's had her head in a paper bag all her adult life.

History knowledge in the general population IS dire though.

Shameful but there it is. Dangerous, actually.

SapphireStrange · 26/05/2016 15:41

Dangerous is right, Just. Thing is as well, this woman is working with the next generation and is perpetuating ignorance rather than awareness. That's what I'm getting at when I keep harping on how someone in a responsible position should have either known better or made sure they educated themselves better before getting into something like this.

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 15:41

So you think there are adult in this country who are not even slightly aware that there is any ambivalence at all about the concept of Empire? Really????

Just5minswithDacre · 26/05/2016 15:47

So you think there are adult in this country who are not even slightly aware that there is any ambivalence at all about the concept of Empire? Really????

I'm sure there are 1000s out there who have no idea whatsoever what the phrase 'British Empire' references.

Have you never met anyone nice but spectacularly uneducated?

Remember Jade Goody?

When an old uni friend was revising for a citizenship test, I visited and she thought I was paranormally gifted for being able to answer the History and Politics questions. Every other English person she'd tried (mainly her secretarial team and neighbours) couldn't answer any of them. She asked me them in a "See this; these are so obscure" way.

SapphireStrange · 26/05/2016 15:48

Just, that's fine that people are uneducated as long as they're not in a position of educating or influencing children.

Anyone who is needs, if they don't have some basic general knowledge, at least the nous to look things up and think about them before they devise activities about them.

Just5minswithDacre · 26/05/2016 15:51

Just, that's fine that people are uneducated as long as they're not in a position of educating or influencing children

No, I agree. I said way upthread that in OP's position I'd be asking for follow up sessions (and suggesting resources on the end of Empire and the Commonwealth) to contextualise and try and mitigate the damage that's been done.

Since the pack leader IS in a position to influence small minds and is unlikely to be fired, I'd be trying to educate her.

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 26/05/2016 15:51

Even if you DIDN'T KNOW any of this stuff

...wouldn't you think, having a trawl tho google, ooh, empire day! I wonder why we don't celebrate THAT any more? -then, you know, google a little bit more?

That's the ignorant bit imo

diversity awareness/how not to be a colonialist twat

there should be badges for this

BertrandRussell · 26/05/2016 15:58

"Have you never met anyone nice but spectacularly uneducated"

Yes. But I frankly wouldn't want them running something like Rainbows- which should have an educational/awareness raising role.

Just5minswithDacre · 26/05/2016 16:00

What's most confusing is that the Guiding movement is so keen on all things Commonwealth.

But I would wager cold hard cash that anyone who says "we googled the date and Empire Day came up, so we decided to celebrate it despite never having heard of it" is not someone equipped to make any connection between Commonwealth and Empire under their own steam.

EveryoneElsie · 26/05/2016 16:02

There seems to be a lot of people that think if a thing is free you have to be grateful for it, or if someone is a volunteer they can be a bit shit at it.

Thats not true.