to call my husband a racist?

[RosieandJim89]

We are looking at holidays at the moment and despite DH saying just a month ago that Spain was predictable and a dirty, he now won't consider anywhere else as its "safe". I suggested a few other places such as Turkey and he said no as he will get arrested for touching me . He will not listen to reason and then came out with "I won't go to a muslim country". I asked what he meant by this and he said they are all like Egypt - dirty and dangerous (his experience) and he doesn't agree with their way of life. He also brought up the shooting on the beach in Turkey to which I pointed out the incident in Paris, London Bombings, 9-11 etc. He said they were different. I could get passed it if it was a one off but when I suggested Morocco earlier in the week he came out with "I am not comfortable with taking DD to a muslim country" and another time he said he was "Wary of muslims".
I have always known that he didn't like the muslim culture which I understand as it is very different to our own but this is something else.
I got frustrated after a while and told him that I do not intend to holiday in Spain alone the rest of my life and that I did not want to discuss the matter further as realising my husband was racist was something that was not easy to take. He says he isn't but I think this conversation suggests otherwise. Happy to be told IABU or overreacting on this but I don't think I am :(

But you live in Britain, right, Bill? How do you feel about UK agents using torture on foreign soil? UK citizens being held at Guantanemo for so long without trial? The new benefits regime (condemned in several quarters as violating human rights)? The proposals on the table to chuck out the Human Rights Act? Or the use of drones in other nations to mount strikes, and the inevitable loss of life attendant thereon? Or challenges to a prevailing culture of surveillance on human rights grounds? What about migrants, left in filthy camps in Calais and Dunkirk? Refugee children without homes?

Or what about things that are more indirect- the imposition of harsh austerity on southern Europe via EU institutions? Or the deliberate policy of using EU institutions, the IMF, the World Bank, to impose neoliberal capitalism in Africa, with devastating effects for local communities?

While these things may not compare to the levels of human rights abuse elsewhere on the plant, I'm not sure 21st century Britain exactly has clean hands.

For all those aiming to avoid Egypt ...

I've just returned from a multi-city tour, and on the whole I couldn't have felt safer while actually in the country. Yes there are issues - women were almost invisible, the poverty is crushing and visitors are very much walking wallets - but in the main the people were wonderful: courteous, friendly, welcoming and very, very helpful

The airport was unfortunately something else again. After recent incidents suffered by Egyptair - admittedly originating somewhere else - I was sure there'd be a decent level of security at the very least

I was wrong

Orangesplott I have family and friends in one of the countries that's frequently being mentioned, and I know many young professionals who are doing every single possible thing they can to get the fuck out of that country, so they can have a hope of developing their careers and raising a family somewhere less repressive and more politically stable. I think they would either be amused or very irritated by some of the rhetoric on this thread.

The way the OP's husband has spoken is so... I don't know... crass, broad-brushed, tabloidesque, that most of us feel obliged to either laugh, dismiss it (bigots be bigots), or just quietly edge away (not touching this one with a ten-foot pole!). But, in terms of explaining why it's utterly wrong, there's a lot of feinting and avoidance and doublespeak going on. I agree with most of what BillSykes has said. And, as likeaboss mentioned, it's saved me from just typing aaaaaaaarrgh.

You can tell your DP that 'muslim' is not a race, it is a faith..... If he were to look at me, he'd have no idea what religion I followed as I don't dress in the clothes associated with my faith (or maybe I do....) so how he can tell who is likely to do bad things to him, I have no idea.

You can tell him that Muslims don't blow anyone up or force their religion on others. Idiotic Morons are doing it and they walk amongst us. Then ask him how he can tell an idiotic moron from a non-idiotic moron and how he can predict their next move???

I'm totally miffed at this post orange. Who cares what they would think? How is it relevant to anything?

I bring the feelings of others to your attention to try and humanise the demonised.

I am trying to make us stop and think before calling someone's entire homeland as "dirty".

It's pretty disrespectful and could be hurtful to the 2 or 3 billion people who are educated and honest hardworking people who live in politically unstable, poverty stricken, corrupt countries. From Lagos to Jakarta to Mauritius.

Governments globally are mistreating people and the powerful have since the year dot caused havoc over the people they rule, but it's not fair or nice to shit on one religion, the people of one religion.

nobilityobliges is speaking with wisdom

I'm saying that in order to believe that the British did terrible things in the empire you don't have to consider that there is something rotten in the concept of Britishness.

But there was. A sincerely-held belief that the white British male was the pinnacle of civilisation and evolution, and that this justified even necessitated the enslavement and mistreatment of other inferior races.

And, years later, this has mostly gone. It remains with a small vocal minority of outright racists, and a larger group who quietly, or subconsciously, hold to residual values. It's no longer 'something rotten in the concept of Britishness', but was an integral part of being British, back then, and it remains something rotten in our past -- unignorable, not just because of testimony from those it affected, but because it was codified into our own laws.

Whenever any human rights abuse is codified into law, then it's an integral part of the society or group living within the influence of these laws, until sufficient resistance or disagreement forces it out.

I am in complete agreement with him that Egypt is dirty and dangerous, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me someone who doesn't enjoy Egypt. The people I encountered there were rude, pushy, aggressive, intimidating, and the 'friendly' ones were just lecherous and smarmy. And the place was filthy. Outside of the resort it was just grim, with a very hostile feel about it. I didn't like the general cynical/grabby attitude to western tourists and to uncovered women in particular.

I also would not go to Turkey, Morocco, Lebanon or Tunisia on holiday right now either but that's because I think it's too risky atm. There are plenty of amazing places to choose from that do not represent the same level of risk, so why take the chance?

I have holidayed in seven Muslim countries and it's been largely fine, but if I'm honest some of them have been quite dirty compared to Europe. Having ticked most of my 'must do' Muslim countries off my list now, I will admit I feel more relaxed and less hassled/ogled in a mostly non-Muslim environment. Although if you want to experience Arab culture then I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Oman, which is lovely and safe. In my experience the people you are likely to encounter there have much gentler manners and are less pushy and in your face than Turkey or Egypt.

I used to want to go to Morocco but I don't think I will ever bother now. I think I have a good enough idea of what to expect in terms of cultural attitudes and I don't think the upsides would outweigh the downsides. I wouldn't set foot back in Egypt if you paid me.

Anyway, the world is a lot bigger than Spain, France is wonderful, Italy is fabulous and what's wrong with Greece?

Absolutely. You could never go anywhere but those three places again and die happy.

Whether people agree with him or not many are following him when it comes to opening their wallets and booking. I will not go anywhere where I am tied to the resort. Thomas cook has reported drops in turkey holidays.

He's not being racist. He's being cautious about visiting muslim countries, because of recent troubles. I have been to Turkey loads of times. I'm giving it a wide birth now, bearing in mind that IT BORDERS SYRIA. Not worth the risk, when there is a whole planet to choose from.

Most tour operators are discounting holidays to Turkey atm as they can't shift them and Turkish Airlines prices are dropping like a stone as well.

Socialism has obviously been used to justify terrible things, but not every Corbynite wants to send those who disagree with them off to the gulags.

When socialists are doing bad things, are they driven to do by a credible interpretation of socialism? If so, I think we can all say that socialism itself is bad, or has bad aspects.

In the USA, a country identifying as Christian, black people are in the middle of a massive struggle to be recognised as having lives of equal value to those of white people.

that's a ridiculous statement. It would be a very extremist view in the US to say black people have lives worth less, and unfortunately some people openly have those views. But it's incredibly far from the mainstream culture, and it certainly isn't encoded in law.

What's not agreed upon is how to solve the problems of faced by the black community.

I'm saying that in order to believe that the British did terrible things in the empire you don't have to consider that there is something rotten in the concept of Britishness.

one major difference between being british and being a member of a religion is that Britishness is much less easily defined. There is no "bible" telling us what it means to be British, and indeed many brits disagree about what it means. That itself allows the entire concept to be much more fluid, so "intrinsically" British isn't necessarily a solid concept.

On the other hand, religions do have bibles, and there are certain concepts that tie all christians together,. I think you would have trouble calling yourself a christian if you maintained Jesus wasn't divine and the bible is just another book.

It's interesting that we are all discussing the same handful of countries but have had very mixed experiences in them. Some say Egypt is fine but Tunisia was hell, or Turkey was hell but Morocco was fine....

Obviously not everyone is going to have had awful experiences, or they'd have no tourism industry left at all. But the fact is, very few threads get started along the lines of 'Am I right to think I will probably not enjoy France/Sweden/Croatia/Italy/Spain/Blah because people tell me it's dirty and dangerous and women get hassled in the street?'

I feel sorry for your DH. Through life experience and real world events he has correctly reasoned that Muslim countries are statistically more dangerous and less accommodating to women than those in continental Europe. His desire to protect the women in his family - you and his daughter - has been rewarded with an absurd accusation of racism. I think you should be apologising to him.

Some of us are the kind of women that don't need 'protection' of that rather paternalistic variety, thanks!

Speaking as someone with Muslim heritage, I would avoid Muslim countries at the moment, sorry. They do have poor human rights records and are disrespectful to gays and women, and are corrupt. We also have the terrorism /ISIS thing to consider too now.

I think there is a rational explanation for avoiding these countries, but I wouldn't go as far as saying all Muslims are bad. Most ordinary ground-level Muslims are decent individuals. But those at the top most definitely are not. Many of us Muslims are ashamed by their behaviour.

maybe not shove but we wouldn't fare very well in those places on our own either, would we? If the local attitude is that we are fair game for unwanted sexual overtures and potential sexual assault unless we are a) covered and b) with a male 'keeper' then our freedoms are seriously curtailed because of that. You can protest all you like about not needing protection from the men in your family but there are times and places in this world where you'll be in need of it unless you go around with your head down and your face covered.

Some of us are the kind of women that don't need 'protection' of that rather paternalistic variety, thanks!

Then thank your lucky stars you don't live in a country where it's either a legal requirement or not having it is a green light that you are fair game to be abused then!

And maybe don't go on holiday there either.

hmcAsWas I hope there won't be an attack in Oman, as my db and wife are there atm, on a posting. I would think Dubai more likely, purely because it is a higher profile target.

OP What about Gib? English spoken, sterling used, yet with a mediterranean flavour.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I do not think that being wary of going to Muslim countries is being racist. Unfortunately,it is the despicable actions of a very small minority of that religion that tarnishes all of them. In today's climate it is understandable that people are scared.

Not wanting to go to a country because you do not agree with the culture or religion is a matter of choice. There are countries that many people would not choose to go to because they disagree with the culture, or the prevailing political or religious context. That does not make someone racist, it is a choice.