To ask for a refund?

[IThinkIveHadEnough]

Yesterday I bought a used Citroen C4 Grand Picasso 2.0 I 16v VTR+ ESG petrol from a trader. It's an auto 07 plate and has just over 68,600 miles on the clock. Test drive was fine and the 70 mile drive home was also ok.

This morning I went out and the car started fine but driving away it sounded a bit like a a motorbike when I pressed down the accelerator, with the noise stopping when I took my foot away. The car felt a bit jolty changing gears too. Rang the place I bought it from and they asked me to try get a mechanic to have a look at it and let them know what was wrong. I had to nip out this afternoon and the noise was happening again but then the car seemed to get stuck in first and the car bleeped with a 'depollution system fault' and engine management light. After that the car seemed to struggle changing up gears, especially 3 to 4. Felt a bit sluggish.

Managed to get it home and called out AA to have a look at it. I explained what was happening, he had a look under the bonnet and revved the engine a bit. White smoke was coming out the back at this point. He plugged in his fault reader and the following codes came up:

P0170 - fuel correction bank 7
P0300 - random cylinder misfire
P0172 - fuel/air mixture rich
P0130 - o2 sensor, bank 7, sensor 2 out of range

The AA guy said it could just be a faulty o2 sensor but then again it might not be. Most likely the exhaust. I told him to leave everything as is for the time being as I'm going to give the trader a call tomorrow. I've been googling a lot (which can sometimes be a curse!) which throws up a possible hole in the exhaust etc etc. I did originally take a recording of the sound and sent it to a mechanic friend (not local) who says it sounds like this could be the case and they (the garage) could have patched it with putty or something hence there being no sound yesterday. I'm in two minds about what to do. Do I let them have a chance at fixing it or give it back an ask for a refund? I've been stung by a French car before (b*** Renault) and I really don't want to go through the aggro again to be honest. The trader also owns a garage and mot'd the car the day before I bought it with no advisories or anything. I know that under the October 2015 consumer act I do have the right to return the car for a refund within the first 30 days or ask for them to fix it. I think I'd prefer to ask for a refund at this stage, it's something I just don't need right now. The car was £4k and I'd expect better than it to be faulty a day after purchase. AIBU? Any advice would be appreciated!

Just checked, it does! www.autotrader.co.uk/content/news/new-laws-protecting-car-buyers-come-into-force-on-october-1st

I would book it into citroen to have a look at. whilst there they should be able to check the service history on it if its been serviced at a main dealer and give you a print out of what was done and when it was done.

If the work has been done at an independent garage then citroen wont have a copy of the service history.

Tbh if you know someone with the thing that tests codes they can just delete it so the light goes off. You will be able to drive it and then after you have driven for a while then the engine management light will come back on and they can deny there was ever a fault.

Thank you for the advice.

I have sent and email over to confirm I require evidence of the service history and health check as discussed on the telephone. I also have the Citroen helpline a quick call to see if there was any way to trace the health check or service history and they've told me that there isn't.

Just an update. I've managed to dig up some history on the car, as the trader I bought it from hasn't passed any documentation over yet. I called the Citroen dealer in the trader's area and just explained the problem. He asked for some details and said that they had had the car in earlier this year to replace the thermostat housing as there was a problem with it. It's also had a new clutch, not one from them though I don't think but most likely the garage the trader is attached to, and it did go to the Citroen dealer to be programmed as it had a judder. I wasn't made aware about the new clutch part from the trader. The Citroen dealer has never serviced the car.

So at least that's something. Will look into booking it into the local Citroen dealer for diagnostics as it will include a report on what's wrong and the cost to fix it so at least I'll be able to give them that.

Unfortunately the "short time to reject " looks good but not as simple as it seems.
We have a brand new Qashqai that we bought in March, within 2 weeks the cruise control failed to disengage as we were filtering into a slower road. Thankfully didnt crash, however we got the dealer to look at it and they couldnt find anything wrong, so we rejected it as not safe. Two months later we have a brand new car unable to drive and still waiting for the dealer to pick it up for more testing as the rejected our rejection.

Sounds very similar to issues I had. The garage was near Chester. The car was advertised as full service history but surprise surprise when I finally got the documents it only had that for the first 3 years or so (it was 14 when I got it - only 70,000 miles though and a diesel).
Engine light went on and faults started appearing shortly after purchase which they refused to do anything about - there was a so called warranty with the car but it didn't actually cover anything.
Ended up spending about £1200 in the first 2 years - got recovered 6 times in 14 months due to breakdowns all of which had entirely different causes! (power steering, crank shaft sensor, fuel pipe blockage... can't remember the rest) It was one thing after another.
Also it later became clear that it had been in a crash.
Oh and one final thing, they said they had to buy the tax disc themselves because it previously had a disabled disc. I paid them for a years worth for £220. They only sent me one for 6 months and refused to send the difference. Until I threatened them with small claims court.
This was from a "reputable" dealer.
I am now going back to buying all cars from ebay. Never had any problems with those.

The only saving grace was I only paid £875 for the car (I still think this is plenty of money to be spending though and expect to get something functional although obviously not flashy).

Oh and they hadn't cleaned the car since the last owner so I acquired various interesting artefacts such as a silver teaspoon, retro sunglasses, £20 worth of small change, a car phone charger and a baby's dummy.

Anyway now I haven't had a single problem with it for 2 years - touch wood - sailed through the past 2 MOTs. (It's now 18)

Could not bear to get rid of it after spending such an insane amount!

The moral of the tale is - dealers are a nightmare - don't touch with barge pole - prepare for obstructive and bullying behaviour. Sad to say but they will probably respect a big burly man a lot more.

bruffin The fact that the process is being led/delayed by the dealer seems wholly unacceptable. Have you taken legal advice/tried exerting pressure via regulatory organisations/contacted the bank if you paid on a card?

As long as the work by the Citroën dealer won't cost you anything you might find it quickest to go down that route. The mechanics at the AA have diagnosed faults and if white smoke pours out of it when you start it up presumably whoever comes to collect it will see it's faulty.

The garage sound like arses. Good luck.

Bruffin and Care - really sorry to hear about your car troubles. It sucks

Gah! Sorry I pressed the post button by accident, on my phone

I spoke to the Citroen dealer here and they can't fit the car in for a week if that's what we wanted to do. We can't really afford to hire a car but costs of getting myself to work and the DC to school is ridiculous so it may be the way to go.

Unsurprisingly the dealer I bought it from hasn't sent me anything via email, not even a reply to the email I sent.

Yes we have a lawyer, and i have spoken to trading standards. It appears the onus is on us to prove the fault , but to prove the fault would mean we have to drive a car we believe to be unsafe.
However as dealer is supposed to be testing the car for 3 weeks but they havnt picked the car up yet. Talking to lawyer tomorrow hopefully

I'd go to an independent garage rather than another dealer.

I hope you get everything sorted out bruffin, it's really stressful.

I would go to an independent garage but I don't have any I trust in my area. If anyone has any recommendations I'm in W Yorks.

bruffin
It appears the onus is on us to prove the fault , but to prove the fault would mean we have to drive a car we believe to be unsafe.

Hope you get a resolution soon. The way the legislation works pre-legally flawed i.e. requiring the retailer to agree to a rejection, which seems at odds with the part of the law which places the burden of proof on the retailer for the first 6 months (proving that there wasn't a fault from the outset). Plenty of scope for a conflict of interests on the part of the retailer.

Ithink Is it worth contacting other Citroen garages in your area?

seems flawed

There isn't really another close by. I've looked online and there may be one independent that I can go to, I will have to give them a call on Monday.

So the past few days I've noticed the car seemed a little low at the back, like the back half of the car is closer to the floor? So I went out to it this afternoon and turned it on. The original fault bleep (depollution) and engine management light came on, but then the car bleeped again and showed a 5mph warning. I hadn't even moved the car (it's been sat there for a week). I've come back in and googled it and the pneumatic suspension is the suspect for that particular fault it brought up. Apparently it can be intermittent and if you stop and start the car again it can go away. Likewise if you reset the faults on the car. It doesn't always come back straight away. I've been sold an utter fucking lemon

Like I said before they switch the warning lights off. ..... **ers

Is there any recourse to them for passing the cars mot with no advisories or anything? How am I meant to prove this? In my eyes there's very clearly a couple of issues with the car that must have been there before. I've done less than 100miles in the thing, most of mileage I did on the way home. I've only driven it the day I got it and the day after.

I've read about the small claims process and it can take up to 6 months if disputed, which they most likely will judging on how they've been so far

Sorry I seem to have missed a whole sentence out at the start there. It was meant to say I f I can get a report from Citroen saying the faults were there before or there's something wrong with the car is there any recourse..

I think there are probably three options here:

1. Exerting pressure through ongoing communication, evidence, expert opinion, regulatory bodies etc
2. The bank - Section 75 or chargeback
3. Small claims track

Some people/organisations respond to ongoing pressure (option 1) - they might recognise that this is a problem that will not disappear; that their reputation might be compromised/their operation scrutinised (involvement of other organisations). That said, the way the dealership has responded thus far does not look promising. So options 2 or 3 might be more successful. Small Claims is a hassle in terms of time, resources, stress etc. If you do go through the whole process and win, it can be another, separate, challenge to get payment. Then again, some claimants might get a result from the initiation of court proceedings, before the case gets to a hearing.

I would get legal advice , a solicitor if you can afford it but certainly trading standards ( or whatever they are called these days) to start with.

Right, it's been in to Citroen today.

They took it for a test drive and it had a gearbox/clutch fault on it. Basically they said that they hadn't been programmed, so that's why it was jolty/sluggish etc. They've reprogrammed the gears and clutch and said on the second test drive it was ok. When I drove it back up there was a little bit of difference but not much. The dealer said that the clutch had been readjusted but Citroen seemed to think that it hadn't at all. I've since read that if it keeps needing to be reprogrammed then it might be in need of a new clutch.

They also found that the front exhaust is blowing between both sensors which they think is the cause of the engine maintenance light. It will require a new exhaust to (hopefully) fix the problem. The visual inspection also found oil leaks and a coolant leak on the bottom radiator hose on union. There's also an advisory on the rear pads/shoes which are at 4mm - should that have been an advisory on the mot?

Does anyone have any opinion on whether this is good enough now to reject the car? I should think it would be but I'm not sure. I can't imagine that within a 100 miles (and less than 24 hours) that all those problems could just go wrong straight away. They supposedly changed the oil so surely they would have noticed a leak when they did? I'm going to get the ball rolling for a chargeback but will email them first a summary of the problems with the car.

I would , you'll never be comfortable with it.

I would imagine that's plenty to go on. I really would contact trading standards because businesses often respond better to them than to individuals and not least because they have issued an mot for a car which isn't roadworthy.