To ask for a refund?

[IThinkIveHadEnough]

Yesterday I bought a used Citroen C4 Grand Picasso 2.0 I 16v VTR+ ESG petrol from a trader. It's an auto 07 plate and has just over 68,600 miles on the clock. Test drive was fine and the 70 mile drive home was also ok.

This morning I went out and the car started fine but driving away it sounded a bit like a a motorbike when I pressed down the accelerator, with the noise stopping when I took my foot away. The car felt a bit jolty changing gears too. Rang the place I bought it from and they asked me to try get a mechanic to have a look at it and let them know what was wrong. I had to nip out this afternoon and the noise was happening again but then the car seemed to get stuck in first and the car bleeped with a 'depollution system fault' and engine management light. After that the car seemed to struggle changing up gears, especially 3 to 4. Felt a bit sluggish.

Managed to get it home and called out AA to have a look at it. I explained what was happening, he had a look under the bonnet and revved the engine a bit. White smoke was coming out the back at this point. He plugged in his fault reader and the following codes came up:

P0170 - fuel correction bank 7
P0300 - random cylinder misfire
P0172 - fuel/air mixture rich
P0130 - o2 sensor, bank 7, sensor 2 out of range

The AA guy said it could just be a faulty o2 sensor but then again it might not be. Most likely the exhaust. I told him to leave everything as is for the time being as I'm going to give the trader a call tomorrow. I've been googling a lot (which can sometimes be a curse!) which throws up a possible hole in the exhaust etc etc. I did originally take a recording of the sound and sent it to a mechanic friend (not local) who says it sounds like this could be the case and they (the garage) could have patched it with putty or something hence there being no sound yesterday. I'm in two minds about what to do. Do I let them have a chance at fixing it or give it back an ask for a refund? I've been stung by a French car before (b*** Renault) and I really don't want to go through the aggro again to be honest. The trader also owns a garage and mot'd the car the day before I bought it with no advisories or anything. I know that under the October 2015 consumer act I do have the right to return the car for a refund within the first 30 days or ask for them to fix it. I think I'd prefer to ask for a refund at this stage, it's something I just don't need right now. The car was £4k and I'd expect better than it to be faulty a day after purchase. AIBU? Any advice would be appreciated!

Trust me, after this never ever ever ever again. Foolish to give it a second try!

If the engine management light comes on- its likely the car will go into "limp home mode". This can be reset by restarting the vehicle and the light wont come on again immediately, only when the car picks up again that there is a problem and it needs to "protect" itself. This could be 5 or 500 miles down the road.

Just to say we do have legal cover through our home insurance and have taken advice from them on the matter. I'm in the process of typing a letter to send via recorded delivery. I've made my intention clear to the dealer via email about no-one coming to collect the car to repair as advised.

They (the dealer) called me within a few minutes of sending the email to say that they've got someone local who can repair the vehicle and I told him no I didn't want that, I'd made my intentions clear in the email (and in phone calls) and I'd be writing to them about my legal position in due course. He was still insisting there was no fault with the car and that they didn't even know if there was a fault with the car. I told him I was happy to scan and email over the AA document. He said that nothing had been officially diagnosed by the AA so if I wouldn't allow them to repair the vehicle and wanted to go down this route I would have to get someone to look at it and diagnose the problem. The legal advice I've been given also said that I may have to do this (get the car inspected and a written report) but that they may be able to provide this for us, so I'm just waiting to hear from the claims team on this.

Been out to the car today and turned it on, there's still a fault showing (not surprising) and white smoke coming out of the exhaust at the back on start up which remained for the duration I had the car on. There was also a strong fume smell as well. Turned the car off and came back in.

Thank you all for your advice, I have really appreciated it. Just hoping that this all gets sorted!

Ithink What was the upshot re: the service history documentation they said they had - did they find it? And have they e-mailed through the Citroen health check documentation? If neither of those are forthcoming, their absence is leverage for you.

They've not sent anything through and I've had another phone call from them plus an email basically ignoring my request for a refund and insisting on taking it to the repair place they've found (which incidentally charged us through the nose on something for our last car and I said I wouldn't use again). The last phone call I had from them was a different person to the manager and said he didn't know why I was going down this route as I would have to prove there was a fault. After stating again that I had made my intentions clear via phone call and email he then said so you want to give it back then and I said yes. He then went on about them having to have a look at it and diagnosing the fault themselves as the AA aren't real mechanics and they don't know what they're talking about (when the manager told me to get AA out to see what was wrong in the first place!). He said 'you have to let us have the car back if you want a refund, but we need to check its faulty ourselves as you've had the AA do a check'. I said of course if I got a refund I would give it back (like I'm just going to keep it?!) but I'd also look to get a report of the problem from someone else first. I'm wary of them saying ok we'll take it back (though I would get it in writing first) and then act as though they're taking it to repair and then say that there's nothing wrong with it.

I have sent the letters (one to the dealership and the other to the registered address I could find for them) recorded so they should have them tomorrow before 1pm. I outlined what happened with the car and when, I've sent them a copy of the AA breakdown report. I did also mention not having the documents they mentioned in my possession. I can invisage lots of phone calls from the dealer tomorrow, who I won't be able to speak to as I'll be in work.

Nice work on the recorded delivery letters.

They can't drag out the 30 days - they can try, but it ends when you have given notice of your intentions. Ideally you'd also give the car back to them within 30 days but if they make that impossible, just keep evidence - get emails saying they don't want you to take it back, etc.

They're probably going to make a big loss on the car now but it serves them right. Stand your ground. You are entitled to return it. They are entitled to get a third party to look at the car and diagnose the fault if they want too, but your insurance may well cover that and as that would be a neutral third party, it would be unreasonable of them to then also want another.

Are you driving the car at the moment?

Thank god for araiba and peggyundercrackers. You've been riled up by paranoid posters on here. Any retailer is generally more accommodating if you don't go in with the attitude that they've conned you, and you don't start quoting Acts at them within the first three minutes of conversation.

I didn't quote acts in the first three minutes, I actually spoke to them twice before any mention of any act. It was yesterday that I spoke to them about the consumer rights act after talking through everything with my husband. I have been polite in every conversation I've had with them, where as they've tried to strong arm me and threaten that I'd be off the road for months.

No I'm not currently using the car and haven't since Saturday.

He then went on about them having to have a look at it and diagnosing the fault themselves as the AA aren't real mechanics

Unfortunately it sounds like whatever information/evidence you provide might not be accepted by them. They seem to have created their own reality with their dealership and garage set up. It might be that you have to go down the bank route or the legal route. If they can't provide the full service history, then the vehicle is not as described, and falsely using that claim to encourage a sale would be misrepresentation.

You said you had audio evidence of the sound - worth also taking a video of the smoke to show that driving the car might be inadvisable.

Have you googled the dealership and garage to see if there have been any other complaints? Might throw up some useful information.

I had a Google and there was only one (good) review that seemed to mention another negative review that wasn't there. Not sure whether they've had it removed as I can't see it. I've check their Facebook page and there are some good reviews but a few negative comments on there too.

They've received my letters this morning (record delivery) but so far I have heard nothing. I'm assuming that they're going to possibly just ignore me now until I have a mechanics report? Still no word on any of the paperwork either.

If you can get a refund, do. We had depolllution error come up with my Citroen c4 Picasso. It might just need the bladder changing/refilling. My mechanic hoped it was that after much research into the depolllution filter issues. It turned out it was going to be a hugely expensive, major repair job. Would have cost more than the car was worth to fix so we got rid of it. It appears it's also a common problem.

You've got the fact that it's a new, to you, car on your side and I'm sure the dealership would know about this error/issue and have hoped that you would be long gone before it reared its head.

Thanks for the input Mini. Sorry to hear you had trouble with your car too.

I'm starting to wish I'd not bought the thing. All I'm doing is constantly stressing. The next thing to do is to try and find someone local who can come out and inspect the car. I mentioned about the documents in the letter but should I email and ask for them again or just leave it alone? The legal bit of the home insurance is only open 9-5 which are my work hours, so going to have to try get in touch with them on my lunch tomorrow.

any news IThink?

What you describe about pressing the accelerator and hearing a motorbike sound sounds like a problem my car had recently. I could drive it but every time I pressed the gas, there was a roaring sound. Turned out the entire back box of the exhaust had rusted through and needed replacing.

I think you need to go to a garage to get an opinion from a mechanic. If it is the exhaust then it should be easy to verify that this was an existing fault as you wouldn't have owned it long enough for the problem to occur. Usually when I take my car in, the garage will call me with a cost estimate and I can decide whether or not to instruct them to do the work. Otherwise I think they would just charge me for labour. It's worth it surely, even if it costs you £50 or so? If you could get a mechanic to say that in his opinion this is a pre-existing problem, it could add some weight to your argument.

Oh and I wonder if araiba works for a 2nd hand car dealership... They are often dodgy as. Plus 9 years and under 70,000 miles is not the point at which I would expect a car to conk out so don't feel it is your fault. Especially if the car dealership charge £4k for it. I paid £4k for the same age car but 3 years ago, so was only 6 years old at the time. It had similar mileage and other than the exhaust and a break binding, it has been fine. It's not a citroen though.

No advice, but amused at them saying that the AA aren't mechanics. They are.

I think you may have to go down the legal route. We had a similar issue with a second hand ( but only 1 year old ) Corsa.

The crank shaft had broken and it had been patched up but not properly repaired. I lost all power, gears and brakes at a roundabout and was nearly hit by an artic lorry!

Dealer wanted to repair but we got an independent report showing it was s dangerous bodge job and then went to court.

I represented myself and won. Dealer turned up but offered no useful defence. Just said that they'd offered to repair it and I should be grateful for that! I got a refund and costs awarded.

If you've got legal cover then I suggest you use it.

I spoke to the legal side of home insurance today. Apparently we aren't covered through them for car issues . I suppose the only upside is they can still offer us legal advice but just not do anything for us. A bit crappy but there we go.

Managed to get in touch with a mobile mechanic today who said he'd be able to do a vehicle inspection and get something down it writing for us for £30 but he can't come until next week. I'm just wary about getting the car back to the dealer. I've read so many conflicting things about you only have to make it available for them to collect and others saying you have to return it at your own cost.

I've heard nothing from the dealer and no sign of any paperwork to do with the vehicle. I'm going to put a chargeback request into the bank in the morning as all funds have cleared from our account.

Once I have a report showing what is exactly wrong with the car then I'm happy to return it and leave the keys with them as I'll have that evidence.

That's interesting running, I shall keep that it mind. There are a few garages near us that I could possibly run the car to - I just want to try and get everything sorted as quickly as possible.

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You are only required to make the vehicle available for collection, unless the dealership said otherwise in e.g. their terms and conditions.

Link from the IAAF (an organisation supporting the car industry) on making the vehicle available:

www.iaaf.co.uk/news-item/the-short-term-right-to-reject-under-the-consumer-rights-act-2015

I've spoken with the dealer again today to ask about the evidence of the service history and health check. It was the sales manager I spoke to. He asked why I wanted it if I was wanting to give the car back and I said that I needed to to see it as it had been advertised with it and I'd verbally been told the health check existed and that they had the paperwork for it. He said it did exist but I didn't need it because I'd decided to go down the legal route

I asked him if he could scan evidence of it over to me via email as I wanted to see it. He asked whether they could get the car booked in somewhere and then offered to get it booked in to Citroen because it made no difference to him because the garage would be paying the bill. I said at the moment I just wanted to see the documents relating to the car. He said he would scan them but couldn't give me a time as he was very busy.

I've spoken to someone who provides independent engineers reports and he has advised to get the car diagnosed at a main Citroen dealer at the expense of the place I bought it from and then go from there. I don't know what to do. There's lots of things going on in real life and this is all just an extra thing I don't need to be dealing with.

I wouldn't think that they can refuse to give you the documents for the car. As things stand, it is your car and the documents belong to you. I would follow up that phone call with an email to reiterate the content of the conversation. There is no reason not to give you the paperwork unless it shows different info to what you've been told.

As things stand right now, have you rejected the car and made it available to collect?

I wouldn't pay for any diagnostics if you have, if they can evidence that you rejected the car before incurring the costs they can probably get out of paying.

Sounds like again they are being deliberately evasive in regards to the documents. As above, at the moment the car is yours as you have paid for it, they need to give you a copy of the documents they hold for it. If they actually have these docs, which I'm sceptical they have, then there should be no problem providing them!

Do put it in a email, it's really important you have a paper trail of all conversations that have taken place so whilst going down the legal route you have evidence on paper of trying to communicate with the dealers and trying to resolve the situation.

If I were you I would personally not use an independent garage and take it (get it picked up) to the Citroen dealer- the other dealership will be less able to argue that it's not a proper inspection etc if it's looked at by Citroen specialists.

Ps. Our c4 recently had a depollution error message, it was lucky I had just got off the motorway as the car just stopped-like they do when they run out of petrol. I shudder to think what would of happened literally seconds before when I was doing 70+ on the motorway.
I would strongly advise not driving it anywhere at all and getting Citroen to pick it up and diagnose it.
Our error turned out to be a fault with the fuel pump pipe?! Still cost £800 though!

I don't know what to do.

Keep using your home insurance legal advice for any legal questions you have. Find out if the bank can help, and if so, what they need from you. All you can do is follow the processes required. I would avoid putting the car into the hands of the dealership until the point of refund. All of their conversations with you seem very odd. You would expect the Sales Manager to prioritise sending copies of the paperwork to you, especially if he thinks this is a possible legal case. Unless the documents don't exist.

Good advice from makingmiracles.

If I recall correctly, under the CRA 2015, if something is rejected within 30 days, the onus is on the retailer to prove that it's faulty, and they have to bear any costs of inspections/returns without 'significantly inconveniencing the consumer'. They can't refuse your right to reject nor force you to accept a repair.

To be fair, I don't know if this also applies to second hand purchases though.