We pay £250 more a month in CSA payments than we have to

[MrSnow]

Long story short, I had a son after an extremely short relationship 16 years ago. I had an average paid job but under the old rules of the CSA I paid 40% of my wages, around £400 quid a month. 12.5 Years later I get married to a woman I love and we have an amazing little boy. We also brought a house together. I didn't tell the CSA any of this and carried on paying the £400.00 for around 2 years. The CSA then contacted me and asked for a full review of my circumstances, as a result they are now only taking £150.00 a month. I contacted my son's mother and we agreed to keep paying her what we were paying her as it was only fair on my son. However, a year down the line we could really do with extra cash. AIBU to ask the mother of my son to take a deduction of £150pm so we'd only be paying her £250.00pm a month? My son is 16 next month and applying for colleges. I don't have any contact other than the occasional phone, text, Christmas and birthday presents. Not that it really matters but she owns a house that she rents out, rents a house herself and has a decent convertible car. My Son has everything, and more, that he could wish for in terms of material goods. What I'm afraid of is if she kicks off?? I don't want to cause any stress or concern for my boy.

I would be interested to hear the no contact back story op. I am currently somewhat sympathetic to you, but based more on my own situation than anything else, which might be way off.

Dh's dd ceased contact, of her own volition, when she was 14 - after a seemingly innocuous argument between her and dh. No court in the land will force contact on a 14yo, as dh's ex knew full well when she told her dd, just before her 14th birthday, that at 14yo she could decide when and how much contact she wanted to have with her dad. So after religiously paying above the csa recommended level for over a decade, even after having a ds between us, and ensuring he saw his daughters every single weekend and during school holidays, it was his eldest who decided she didn't want to be parented by him any more. He continued to pay maintenance for the 4 years after contact stopped and has repeatedly tried to reinstate contact directly with her to no avail and he now has accepted her wishes - she's almost 19yo after all.

So it's much easier to fight for contact with younger children, less so with older ones. I get that. But how hard have you tried op?

Omg op I can't believe some of the vitriol on here. I think you are copping for a lot of bitterness projected onto you because of various posters' situations. I think you've been extremely dignified under the circumstances. There is no evidence from your posts, unless I missed something, that you were just careless about the conception of this child; maybe you were led into this pregnancy. It certainly doesn't sound like your ex partner has encouraged you to be part of your son's life and if she has made it difficult for you to see your son, that is entirely her responsibility. Unless there is evidence of abuse, which sounds unlikely on the balance of probability given that you are weighing up this decision so carefully, it is not reasonable for mothers to keep fathers out of their childrens' lives, for the childrens' sake if not the fathers'. It adds insult to injury that they then expect maintenance to pay for the child they refuse to let you see. Please try again to establish contact. It will make the world of difference to him in the long run.

Littlelion I'm almost certain that if your dh is generally a good dad she will want contact again in the future.

Give over ChiRup. Acknowledging that there's a huge spectrum of reasons why a person isn't seeing their child, rather than just blaming it on women, would make you seem far more credible.

If you knew my ex you'd be convinced that I've stopped access and that he's had me through the courts but I'm flouting their decision. This is what he's telling people. But the reality is I've said he can have contact providing he takes a drug test that proves he no longer does class A drugs. He's not even contacted a mediator, never mind taken me to court. The fact is, people who choose not to pursue contact for selfish reasons have every reason to lie about why, as do RPs who obstruct contact for no good reason. Which version of events you get depends entirely upon which of the two parents you're speaking to. I'd bet my right arm that the reason you appear to know so many men who say they've been through the courts and it's failed is because you know an awful lot of feckless fathers who are spouting the most socially acceptable reason.

Only you know the circumstances OP, so I'm not going to comment on that.

What do you think you should be paying?
I know how much you've said you can afford to pay, and what the minimum amount legally is, but disregarding the income of your ex, which isn't really relevant as she is raising this child as a single parent irrespective of her earnings and her, um, personality, why don't you try and work out how much it costs to support a nearly 16 year old?
(I don't really know how much BTW as my kids are younger, but what I'm suggesting is you actually write this all down, and do your own calculation)

So factor in living costs - ok how much would you guess she pays for all bills eg mortgage, gas, electric, water - all the stuff you pay - then how much less she'd be paying if she only had to pay for one person not two. Remember a 16 year old probably hammers the electricity bill.
Then how much it costs to feed a 16 year old (probably a fair bit going by the amount my 9 year old can put away)
Clothing and footwear and extras like sportswear etc
Educational stuff
extra-curricular stuff
holidays
pocket money
driving lessons and wotnots like that
petrol to ferry him around

I'm sure others who have teenagers can add plenty to that list.

What I'm saying basically is try to work out realistically what he costs financially to support each month. Half it. How much is that? Do you think you should be paying some directly to him as well?

Thanks for the reassurance Ivegot - he's a great dad and fortunately his other dd, who is now 16, believes so too.

You're probably right. A bit like women refer to the exes/father of their children as the same thing or something similar

I would be, and have in the past both on MN and IRL been just as critical of women who say the same sort of things about men. I would similarly suggest that a woman who calls her ex a 'headcase' and says something along the lines of 'all men are only after one thing, and they're all bastards' or whatever has a pretty low opinion of men.

can't understand why people are offended by the OP's choice of words to describe his ex

I'm not offended, just curious as why if she is as described, why she is the resident parent.

I can use a few choice words about my exH, but not only my child doesn't live with him, but contact has been supervised so far. I don't entrust my children to nutcases.

I would similarly suggest that a woman who calls her ex a 'headcase' and says something along the lines of 'all men are only after one thing, and they're all bastards' or whatever has a pretty low opinion of men

Except that the only place where things like that were actually said was in your head.

Apart from the headcase comment, obviously.

I was giving a hypothetical example. Quite evidently

One would suggest that if a man has taken the time to join a predominantly female forum to ask the opinion of it's inhabitants then it should be evident that I have an extremely high opinion of women.

Snow I'm asking again because you seem to be missing my posts;

Does your son have his own phone/social media accounts? Why don't you keep in contact with him directly assuming he does have his own stuff and is old enough for you to have a relationship outside of his mother?

I know someone who made the 'mistake' of not being careful enough with his semen (got told she was on the pill). He is paying for that mistake both financially and because he has never been allowed contact with his child. Yes he tried, but court orders were ignored and constantly got given the run around. Maybe that 'isn't trying hard enough' but as far as he could see if he forced the issue it would end up hurting the child more. And also, never having met his child, he didn't have that emotional bond to keep him fighting.

Walt,

it's my aim to contact him when he's 16 but I just felt it was disrespectful for me to appear on his social media and go "Surprise, it's your Dad" whilst he's the age he is what with exams etc. I also didn't want his mam to go thermonuclear.

I like the idea of adding his cost of living and activites up and halving it ...but be fair and include it all. Even some of the car expenses as she nneeds a motor to get him about. Travel expenses, food, school dinners, clubs, nights out, books, bits for hobbies, haircut, shoes, clothtes, football kit, washing powder....all that stuff. Music. Mobile phone. WiFi.

Apart from that, OP, you're not replying to any of the posters who are trying to be helpful. Only to those that are directly critical, or who tell you exactly what you want to hear.

Between the extremes at either end, there has actually been some great advice on here for you.

But you were in touch until last year? So that's a few months no contact?

Hardly a big surprise? Assuming you have his mobile number to text etc?

x-post - as I see you did just reply.

But you haven't to a lot of others. Read back through the more moderate advice - it can be easy to miss once name calling starts up, but there is a lot of good advice for you here.

I could cry for your ds. Other than money, where's the effort? When your eldest son looks you in the eye and says "dad, where were you? Where were you when I needed you?" The questions may not come now, but one day they will and you best be prepared with a decent answer, that doesn't blame his one constant his entire life.

.....All the stuff teenagers use to make themselves look/smell teenagery....

Still think you should write him a letter but leave out any 'your mum won't let me see you' because he will be naturally defensive of his mum. You might even compliment her on doing a grand job of bringing him up (if she has done)to stop her getting irrate about it. That might build a bridge for you and open up a conversation about increased contact.

Even if the ex has fucked OP over seven ways to Sunday, it doesn't matter. He hasn't made a full effort to reach his child and he speaks about the boy in dismissive and indifferent terms, compared to the "amazing" younger son with whom he has "a beautiful relationship." He's not interested in the elder unless he's going to "understand" and listen to OP's side. He's the kid, OP. He's the only one who didn't choose to be here. His feelings and need for fairness matter more than yours. And if maintenance is the only constant you've given him, what does it say when even that goes down?

Who cares that you can look your family in the eye with their support? They're not your eldest son. He's the one whose feelings you should value in all this.

ChiRup, you said:

Mr Snow - drop all payments altogether. It is easy enough to use financial loopholes to get around child support and get your payments down to £5 a week.If you are not in the childs life and allowed contact then cease to pay. Simple as that.

ChiRup - Wow - your advice is way off the mark and morally wrong. Why on earth punish the child financially? If, as you indicate, you are aware of the Family Court system as you refer to various orders, then you will know full well that the Family Courts wish to separate the issue of finance and contact. One does not equate to the other.

You also refer to section 91 (14) orders being handed out. These are orders that bar an applicant from making continual applications to the Court. Well, I can tell you these are very rare orders indeed because it is seen as a basic human right to make an application to the court. This will preclude you from doing so for a specified amount of time and there has to be something seriously wrong for an order like this to be made.

One was not even made in our case when my gs's father took me back to court 42 times over a 6-7 year period. The Judge told him firmly that he did not want to see the matter in his court ever again. Experts involved said the case was crying out for such an order. But they can be appealed thus continuing litigation which is damaging to the child.

I think op that it was always likely you would get a flaming on here. You have had plenty of opportunity to reduce payments in line with the Government guidelines enforced by the CSA/CMS. That you chose not to relects well upon you but your comments have been unfortunate and inflamed by the stance of ChiRup.

Resolution lines in your hands. If you want to reduce payments, apply to the Agency and let them deal with it.

As the rp doesn't seem to be struggling financially, the nrp adjusting payments to what the csa would assess is surely reasonable

it's assuming a lot, however, when you are dealing with someone you have no relationship with and no real knowledge of how their life is. I am a swam to anyone watching - it's all smooth gliding and making it look effortless whilst underneath, I am paddling away furiously and working damned hard to make it all add up. You can't assume all is OK just because it looks like it is.

A nrp isn't paying to bring a child up, they are contributing to monthly costs
Well, yes, in this case, I think it's pretty clear that the OP has paid his ex to bring up his child whilst he doesn't take on those responsibilities (whether he meant it to be like that or otherwise). .

He clearly does not have the means to keep up those payments

How is it clear? The OP has said that he earns £60k, and he has a wife who presumably is also able to work. He thinks (but isn't sure) that the ex lives alone so she has one income only, albeit a similar income to the OP. On the face of what is written here, I would suggest he has the same means or more (if his partner is meeting some of their joint costs of living) than the ex in terms of being able to support their child. However, the expectation is that his portion of that can be reduced to £150 a month, no questions asked, because legally his ex will have no come back.