to think the current NHS guidelines for alcohol and breastfeeding are batshit and not conducive to long term breastfeeding

[lemonadey]

I was at a wedding on Saturday, I took 6m old dd but me and dh decided he would be the one "on shift" and I would have a few drinks as its been a while (dd is a bottle refuser) over the course of the day I drank quite a few glasses of prosecco (I didn't count but by the end of the day it probably amounted to about a bottle) but obviously still bf dd at points and I got pretty fed up of the amount of people quite openly shocked at me breastfeeding and drinking. I do get it, the nhs guidelines are basically the same as if you're pregnant even though the way alcohol transfers to the baby is completely different and the amount of alcohol that enters your breastmilk is negligible.

I just feel it is another way for women to feel like their life is "on hold" while breastfeeding, my mum breastfed me and said she never gave a second thought to what she ate or drank and it was a really enjoyable experience for her, it was part of her life, she never expressed or "pumped and dumped".

I wish more women realised you can still have a social life that includes drinking whilst breastfeeding, the current guidelines are so ridiculously strict and just result in judging from other people and unnecessary guilt for mum.

So tell me, AIBU??

Yes! HTKB exactly. I drank 'normally' for me (2 or 3 bottles of wine per week) when breastfeeding. Not worried, don't feel even a flicker of concern. My only worry was not to get so drunk I couldn't care for the baby or if I ℅ slept it would be dangerous. But getting pissed isn't my style, having a glass or two over dinner with my husband: fine. I'll be fucked if any 'guidelines' or judgeypants would stop me!

Agree - women are judged harshly by society, and more so when they become mothers. They must become self-sacrificing madonnas, not enjoying a few at a party.

Sorry 2 or 3 bottles between two of us!

am just very LOL at you quaffing prosecco and BF at a wedding!!!!!

for me, yanbu (and especially given the links)

buit I can imagine the cats bum faces

I like a drink too

YANBU.

Drinking and breastfeeding is really misunderstood. It's completely different to drinking in pregnancy.

The quantity of alcohol in breastmilk is the same as the blood concentration, so even if you drank enough alcohol to kill you (blood alcohol would be about 0.55%), the breastmilk would still be less alcoholic than orange juice. One glass of wine now and then, or even several glasses in a day, will not cause the breastmilk to harm a baby.

The biggest issue with alcohol and breastfeeding is if you get too drunk to safely look after your baby (alcohol and co-sleeping should definitely be avoided), but this is an issue that also applies to bottle fed babies being cared for by a parent who's been drinking.

I barely drink any more, because I feel hungover almost at once, there and then. It's horrible.

Having said that, there was a debate on this on MN a while ago and BertieBotts talked the science through: it turned out that unless you are drinking huge amounts, then there is more alcohol in the average glass of orange juice than there is breastmilk.

Drinking when pregnant means you and the baby drink the same amount. But the baby isn't sharing it when you breastfeed - the baby is not drinking your alcohol intake, but your blood alcohol levels instead. That means the baby is drinking a hugely diluted alcohol level.

This calculator shows that a woman of average build drinking 3 glasses of wine and a cocktail over 2 hours, with a couple of glasses of water, will have a blood alcohol level of 0.154%. That's well over safe driving levels, because it reflects blood alcohol of the driver. But orange juice is 0.1% too, and I don't think anyone here would argue you shouldn't drink orange juice and drive. The same applies - the baby isn't consuming the alcohol alongside you, as when pregnant; the baby is consuming the alcohol levels in your own blood.

You would need to be drinking neat vodka at speed and in volume to harm your baby. And yet I also know several women who gave up breastfeeding in order to drink. So I agree with the OP: not giving accurate and good advice on this (I suspect to avoid confusion over the drinking when pregnant message) is harming breastfeeding rates.

I'm with the OP.

I'm pregnant and have given up the booze for now.

My baby is due in October. I have every intention of both breast feeding and having wine with dinner again at Christmas.

There is no evidence that the odd glass of wine harms anyone - mother or baby.

It's pure moral superiority to state that a woman having the odd glass of wine while feeding her child is unreasonable.

Nobody on this thread has come up with a real, proven reason not to have the odd glass. Getting drunk is bad of course as your less likely to be good at caring for your child; that's not the same as poisoning your newborn which is what some are implying.

Op if this thread had achieved one thing it's made me feel a lot happier about my plan to bf my baby for a year. I was apprehensive about all the expressing etc that I was expecting to do just to have a couple of drinks at a social event (I'm obviously an alcoholic )
So thank you for bringing the subject up. I've saved the link for future reference.

Breast milk is made from components of the mother's blood, and can only ever have the same alcohol content as her blood. As lethal blood alcohol is about 0.3%, if a woman drank to the point of alcohol poisoning, her milk would only ever be 0.3% alcohol!

To put that in perspective, fruit juice is around 0.1%. So unless a woman is drunk to the point of unconsciousness, and approaching lethal alcohol levels, her milk will be less alcoholic than juice

A lot of people seem to be repeating that there's no evidence that the odd glass of wine is harmful. That's exactly what the NHS guidelines say, and yet the title of this thread is saying the NHS guidelines are "batshit." If you think an occasional glad of wine is okay but binge drinking or getting drunk isn't then surely you're in agreement with the guidelines?

I didn't drink through my pregnancy. I very occasionally drank while BF for a year. But then, I drink very occasionally as well. Some people are really adamant that a social life without booze is worthless, which to me, sounds really odd. My social life revolves around friendships, but not a liquid that I consume. It would be a very limiting life to lead.

On the other hand, I read all the literature and continued to eat soft cheese in pregnancy (because most of it is pasteurised anyway).

My point is that you can't really do research on pregnant women/newborns and so the guidelines tend to be absolute. And as sensible women we should make up our mind, but to find my entire social life/happiness etc to revolve around something I consume, I find a bit odd. But to each his/her own.

The odd glass isn't going to hurt, but a bottle? That's over the daily guidelines even if you are not breastfeeding.

And if the amount of alcohol in breastmilk is tiny why do we all reel back in horror at the thought of putting alcohol in formula and giving it to a baby? It's something no sane person would do

And if the amount of alcohol in breastmilk is tiny why do we all reel back in horror at the thought of putting alcohol in formula and giving it to a baby? It's something no sane person would do

Because the amount that passes through the breastmilk is so absolutely tiny, it doesn't even begin to compare to putting alcohol directly into the baby's bottle...

Well I agree that a bottle in one day isn't great for ME, I'm not suggesting it's a great lifestyle choice but it was a special occasion, and I just don't see that it would have an affect on my dd, based on links already posted above.

I couldn't agree with you more OP. I have spent around 4 years of the last 5 either pregnant or breastfeeding - my social life has pretty much disappeared.

I'm not an alcoholic, but most activities involving my family and friends revolve around drinking (and eating usually!). When you can't join in properly, aren't on the same level or are being judged for your choices it generally takes the fun away. I have missed out on so many social opportunities over the last few years because I can't express (3rd baby, tried everything, I really can't!), and don't really want to give formula (all 3 milk intolerant so need special formula).

I don't really get drunk while breastfeeding as I worry about falling asleep/dropping the baby, I do if my partner is 'on duty' - I am not remotely concerned about alcohol being passed over. I have a drink though. I think this is why the nhs or whoever have not publicly changed guidelines, because there would be more instances of babies being put in danger.

Too many judge people here.

The odd glass isn't going to hurt, but a bottle? That's over the daily guidelines even if you are not breastfeeding.

She didn't drink it at once! Over the course of a day her blood (or milk) alcohol level would have been tiny. Think about it.

If you use vanilla in your child's food, or you make a fucking risotto for baby led weaning it's going to have some tiny amount of alcohol in it (and no, it doesn't all evaporate).

Considering the numbers above why is no one saying, actually, maybe this isn't the worst thing in the world.

Baked goods made with vanilla extract or other extract flavoring that contain alcohol retain some of the alcohol. Desserts such as cookies made with vanilla extract baked for 15 minutes still retain 40 percent of their alcohol content. Pies and cakes cooked for 60 minutes retain 25 percent of their original alcohol content.

Gardencentregroupie
"Links have been posted up thread"

I can only see a link to the Breastfeeding Network and a Telegraph article. As far as I can see neither substantiate claims like "the toxic parts of alcohol don't enter the breastmilk at all" or "research studies have been approved to test the effects of alcohol in breastmilk in infants, there are not ethical objections because we know its ok."

I'm asking because I'd like to understand how reliable the evidence for these claims is.

When it comes to alcohol and breastfeeding I alway look to Dr Jack Newman. And you know if you really are concerned you can buy strops that test the alcohol concentration in your breast milk. I think people aren't really understanding the science behind how breast milk is made and how alcohol passes through the body. My 18 month old is still feeding. I had 1/2 a bottle of wine last Friday night. There is nothing wrong with that.

A bottle is a lot, even over the course of a day.

Otherwise, I'm with the OP. I'm bf my third dc after a largish gap. My other two were bf for 7.5 years cumulatively and 5.5 years continuously (long period of tandem feeding). I had wine. I very rarely have more than two medium-sized glasses of wine at once (ie in one day) because I am a lightweight - one small one is a lot more usual -, and I've always had days/weeks without, so drinking like that - but certainly less still when they were very small - was fine in my view. I also had a small glass every 4 weeks or so (on average) in the second halves of my pregnancies.

Pregnancy, birth and childrearing seem to represent wonderful excuses for society at large to feel free to judge and berate women and make them feel small. That can range from aspersions on child behaviour (I was out with my two once, who were not on great form, and a woman came past me and hissed 'both children crying, we know what kind of mother you are' - WTF?) to assumptions that women have not thought throufgh their habits in pg and bf. And one of the favourit accusations is always of selfishness.

The safety guidelines are for one day not downing the lot in one go. Just go read them. That's 24 hours if you didn't know.

I wouldn't even put a few drops of alcohol in a babies bottle but then I can actually enjoy myself without drinking.

If you seriously can't enjoy yourself without being tipsy then it's up to you how you behave, but don't expect other people to think its appropriate.