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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Mother sues for £20k for being discouraged from bf while the wave machine was on

1000 replies

sizeofalentil · 02/05/2016 12:54

Daily Mirror link to the story here.

I'm totally for breastfeeding wherever and whenever, but I wouldn't want to eat my sandwiches in a swimming pool - they are so germy, like a human soup, so not sure a swimming pool with a wave machine on would be the best place to bf. Plus, obviously in this case there was the waves.

I realise that getting out of the water, especially if she had other kids, with a hungry baby would be a massive faff, but wouldn't the wave machine splash the baby and make it choke?

Serious question: AIBU to think this? Is bf in a swimming pool a done thing? Genuinely curious.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Jasonandyawegunorts · 19/05/2016 10:00

This had nothing to do with her exposure

But without this Math has nothing to argue about. So it needs to be brought up like it's the issue here.

If Math admits that a chair by the pool will have the same or more exposed breast visable, the her whole flimsy, poorly put together discrimination argument doesn't exist.

So it NEEDS to be about people not wanting to see breasts otherwise the case for discrimination goes out the window. This is why math (And only math) keep injecting this into her posts.

MangoMoon · 19/05/2016 10:41

BOOBS!

Sorry, I had a Math moment... Wink

zeezeek · 19/05/2016 11:29

Math- there is absolutely no need to keep attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you.

I happen to not give a shiny shit how a baby is fed, as long as it is fed. I chose to keep my breasts for my husband's sexual gratification and bung a bottle of formula in the kids' mouths - but, you know what, it was my choice and I don't feel the need to write endless essays on an internet forum about how I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

Shouting discrimination at every little perceived slight does weaken the case and the public's patience for real discrimination.

Vickyyyy · 19/05/2016 11:35

But she did experience discrimination, both at the wave pool and previously in a NHS hospital, no less.

--

Sorry I should have been clearer..I meant the mum at the BF group I was going to. Getting excited at the thought if maybe suffering prejudice to the point where she spent ages talking excitedly about the retorts she would give for each different scenario.

Flashbangandgone · 19/05/2016 12:12

math

It's a pity you don't realise that ironically the extreme militancy that you espouse is undermining the cause of public breastfeeding!

Ffs you are advocating that it is reasonable and proportionate to sue an organisation for many thousands just because an employee offered a chair!

mathanxiety · 19/05/2016 18:52

Caroline Starmer apparently has a history of mental illness. Nobody knows if her MH issues clouded her judgement on the occasion when she made a false report, but I feel it is unfair to her to keep on mentioning her, for that reason.

I don't know why you continue to bring her up here unless you are trying to imply that the word of nursing mothers is always suspect.

Jeez so no one can politely ask if someone would like a chair now before people shout 'discrimination'. [Littlemiss]
We've been over this. If you are on duty as an employee of a business then you are subject to the terms of the Equality Act and so is the owner or the management of the business. So don't interfere, interrupt, second guess the seating arrangements or tell the women she has to breastfeed elsewhere. She has the right to use the facility or the premises to breastfeed, in the spot that she chooses. If you are not employed in a business or if you are on a bus or train or at a pool or elsewhere and representing nobody but yourself, you are free to offer a chair to anyone.

ZeeZeek -- discrimination can happen even if it is not experienced as a slight. People can be quite happy to experience discrimination.
It is always a good thing to know your rights however, because discrimination is always a problem, if not for you then for the next women, and the more we stand up against it the better this world will be for all of us. So even if we are SAHMs we support women who are in the workplace and hope that they will one day be paid equally. We support the right of women to vote even if we ourselves don't care to register or vote. Etc.

LT
It's the wave pool that makes the difference.
And as shown, there is a perfectly safe shallow end where parents and their small children can hang out, safe from the waves but still enjoying the aquatic experience.
No reviews complained about having to hoik small children out of the shallow end when the wave machine was on.
One review complained about a very obvious safety issue with the slide, which leads me to suspect that this pool management hasn't trained its lifeguards well at all. I suspect they wouldn't recognise a safety issue if it jumped up and bit them in the arse. Therefore their appraisal of an alleged situation where a breastfeeding woman was in danger in the pool leaves me raising my eyebrows. (This observation is apart altogether from the description of the shallow end which makes it clear that there is a safe part of the pool when the wave machine goes on.)

Flash,
The amount she is seeking is chicken feed, relatively speaking.
The principle she is standing up for is extremely important, however. There is no point having a law on the statute books guaranteeing the right to breastfeed if businesses and public facilities do not understand their obligation to allow and facilitate breastfeeding, and keep on 'offering chairs at the side and out of the water and away from other pool patrons' or 'offering rooms' or offering somewhere quieter, drier, less noisy, etc. For many businesses this means proper training of staff, going through different scenarios including how to deal with other patrons who approach a staff member to complain about exposed breasts, etc. (Believe it or not, this happens, as shown by the other DM article I linked to.)

Another really good reason to sue, whether for injury or for discrimination, is to force an unwilling or lazy management to educate itself or make changes to ensure safety, and this can happen in an indirect way as well as directly by dint of an adverse judgement. Indirectly -- the pool will have insurance to cover losses in lawsuits. The insurer will note the sort of injuries reported, or the kinds of discrimination, etc. The insurer will talk with the management about risk mitigation because ultimately it is in the insurer's interests for pools it insures not to be facing court ordered payouts or settlements out of court. Or the insurer will ask for documentation of policies in place or safety upgrades in order to prevent future losses of money.

'Extreme militancy' is not going to adversely affect women's right to publicly breastfeed any more. The law is on the side of women.

What you call 'extreme militancy' on the part of breastfeeding women is actually the temerity to exercise that right in whatever manner they choose, and to remind others of it when challenged and to sue when it is clear that management are not willing to follow the law.

Or do you mean by 'extreme militancy' the exposure of breasts while breastfeeding?
Is it somehow unladylike to be aware of your rights and ready to challenge anyone who tries to take them from you?

What incentive is there for businesses to follow the law and provide proper training for staff if people shouldn't sue for discrimination or for laxity on safety matters? Should pools feel free to segregate patrons based on breastfeeding status, which is against the law, or should there be some sort of big stick there to keep them in line? Should pools feel free to operate features like a slide that threatens to cut patrons where the sections are improperly joined, or keep in place rules allowing people to slide together, or provide mats that increase velocity to the point where sliding becomes unsafe?

I hope that the publicity accorded to this particular incident will provide a wake up call to pools and other public facilities. It is important that all managers of public premises educate themselves about their responsibilities under the Equality Act and train employees, if necessary.

So clearly, there are many good reasons to sue.

Peggy, if you want to report, then be my guest.

zeezeek · 19/05/2016 20:08

I'm not entirely sure what message you are hoping to convey to me by striking out all of your response to me.

I know very well what discrimination is and isn't, thank you needy much. I am a disabled woman working an an environment that is very much an old boys club.

I support women's rights, but frankly the ability to shout discrimination at anyone trying to help a breastfeeding woman is not a right and I don't support it.

CoolforKittyCats · 19/05/2016 20:26

We've been over this. If you are on duty as an employee of a business then you are subject to the terms of the Equality Act and so is the owner or the management of the business. So don't interfere, interrupt, second guess the seating arrangements or tell the women she has to breastfeed elsewhere.

Please show me anywhere in the Equality Act that states offering a chair is against the law.

CoolforKittyCats · 19/05/2016 20:28

No reviews complained about having to hoik small children out of the shallow end when the wave machine was on

Of course everyone who ever goes there leaves a review sarcasm

OrangesandLemonsNow · 19/05/2016 20:30

I suspect they wouldn't recognise a safety issue if it jumped up and bit them in the arse.

Know that for a fact do you or are you throwing wild assertions about.

Sparklingbrook · 19/05/2016 20:31

We've been over this. We really, really have. many times over. Only 90 posts to go.

Flashbangandgone · 19/05/2016 20:33

math

It's the utter disproportionality of the response that is the issue and the matter that risks damaging your cause. Interesting that you think £20k is 'chicken feed'. I can assure you from working in finance in the public sector that with the cuts that have been experienced, public bodies do not simply have £20k to hand out like sweeties. In reality if a leisure had to find £20k, that may well equate to another employee being made redundant.... But in your bizarre monomaniacal world that would just be collateral damage - your self-importance being such that your supposed 'right not to be offered a chair' trumps someone's job.

I wonder, do you generally conduct your life according to the principle of 'maximum response' to perceived slights.... Do you demand that your child's teacher be sacked for 'allowing' your child to bruise their knee in the playground? Do you demand that a supermarket bans a customer for life for having 11 items in a 10 items of less aisle?

Littlemisslovesspiders · 19/05/2016 20:33

math You seem to be unwilling to see any other side of this but the one of the mother.

You constantly state there has been discrimination as if it is a matter if fact when nothing has been proven.

Anyone can issue papers to sue. You don't even need a solicitor. It doesn't mean you have grounds to, that you will win, or that it won't get thrown out of court.

LogicalThinking · 19/05/2016 23:32

Caroline Starmer apparently has a history of mental illness. Nobody knows if her MH issues clouded her judgement on the occasion when she made a false report, but I feel it is unfair to her to keep on mentioning her, for that reason.
Caroline Starmer is very relevant. She lied about being discriminated about. Not all breastfeeding mothers tell the truth.
Her defence was that a friend had persuaded her to do it in order to make some money. The judge said that her lies were "carefully planned and orchestrated for financial gain".

The woman at the pool may have lied, exaggerated or told the truth, but I still don't believe that the offer of a chair constitutes discrimination. It is not as black and white as you keep insisting it is. If we were ever to get to the point where an employee offering a chair to a breastfeeding mum was defined as discrimination, then this woman will have done a huge disservice to breastfeeding women.

If a woman was standing in a shop or sitting on the floor, it would be lovely for a member of staff to offer a chair, even if it was at the other side of the shop. As long as she wasn't told to stop feeding, cover up, move out of public view or move if she didn't want to (assuming she wasn't causing a H&S issue) then the offer should never be seen as anything other than kind and supportive.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 20/05/2016 02:30

We're almost there!

Math exactly what are you expecting people to do, suddenly side with you and your totally wrong views?

mathanxiety · 20/05/2016 03:44

So swimming facilities don't carry insurance, Flash? Use them at your own risk, in that case.
None of the silly piddling things you list at the end of your post are discrimination against a breastfeeding woman, Flash. If you think discrimination against breastfeeding women is inconsequential in a world awash with pimped out body parts of women, including breasts, then I invite you to think again.

LT -- Caroline Starmer is a sad woman with a history of mental illness and you ought to be ashamed of dragging her into a conversation as an example of anything except the sorry state of mental health services. Using her to bolster your weak argument that breastfeeding women lie is both absurd and unkind.

You are simply wrong that offering a chair at the other side of a shop or any distance away from where the mother has chose to breastfeed isn't discrimination. The only way the offer of a chair might not be discrimination is if the employee offered to bring a chair to the spot where she was so she could sit there. And even then, why second guess the woman's choice? Women do not expel their brains when they give birth. Best to assume a women is comfortable unless she herself indicates she isn't.

I do not understand why people here can't grasp the idea that all places are not equal and effectively asking someone to move constitutes (1) an interruption of breastfeeding, (2) an upsetting and embarrassing incident, since there is an implication that the woman has chosen an unfortunate spot or an unacceptable spot, or that others have spoken to management about her, and (3) if you admit the principle that moving breastfeeding women elsewhere is ok, then where do you draw the line wrt places the chairs can be? What places can an employee or agent not suggest a woman use a chair in? The principle that women can be 'offered chairs' away from exactly the spot they have chosen leads to women being 'offered chairs' in the ladies room, or 'offered chairs' in separate breastfeeding rooms, or 'offered chairs' in the janitor's closet -- all sorts of secluded places where the sensibilities of the general public won't be upset by the sight of breastfeeding. The whole point of the Equality Act as it applies to breastfeeding women is that nobody can ask in any way that a breastfeeding woman move from the spot she has chosen (H&S issues aside).

Cool the reviews seemed pretty comprehensive. The reviewers seemed to cover pretty much all aspects of the building the pool surrounds, the changing rooms, the concession stand, the slide, the water...
It is illegal for an employee or agent to 'offer a chair' if that chair is separate from the facility the woman has chosen to breastfeed. This women was also 'offered a room' in which to breastfeed in a NHS hospital. It is clear that the phrase is used as a euphemism and that it is a hint to the mother that she should move from where she is to another place. Clearly there is a good deal of resistance to the right to breastfeed.

To ZeeZeek -- The way the Equality Act applies to people who are disabled is slightly different. In the case of a breastfeeding woman, 'staff offering a chair somewhere else' are not trying to help. They are trying to move her somewhere else.
The whole point of the Equality Act as it pertains to breastfeeding women is that they are entitled not to be moved, and not to encounter any hostility to breastfeeding.
The point is that they can breastfeed in public, out among other people, and they do not have to separate themselves in order to breastfeed.
The spirit behind the law as it applies to breastfeeding rights is that breastfeeding is not a shameful act, or an aberrant act, or an incident of indecent exposure. It is a normal and healthy bodily function and even though exposure of a breast or nipple or two may occur, the general public as well as businesses and public facilities are asked to get over themselves and accept that.

ZeeZeek, I don't know what you mean by 'striking out your responses to me' -- what device are you reading this thread on? I am on a PC and haven't struck out anything.

LellyMcKelly · 20/05/2016 05:21

I'm all for public breastfeeding. I've breastfed on buses, in a church, etc. I have no problem with anyone breastfeeding at the side of a pool, but not in the pool. You're not allowed to eat or drink in pools for very good reasons, and this should be no different.

Flashbangandgone · 20/05/2016 07:05

math. Yes, the pool would have Professional Indemnity insurance which may cover this, so perhaps the impact wouldn't be as dramatic as I posted. It's still in effect £20k of public money as claims like this increase premiums.... Not to mention the legal costs. Still not clear what 'damage' has been done that could possibly equate to claim even close to £20k.... I don't see how a case of some mild temporary embarrassment (which is all it could reasonably be) causes any damage that equates to an annual salary for many?

Pagwatch · 20/05/2016 07:10

Professional indemnity insurance protects professionals against claims where they are alleged to have given negligent advice.
Do you mean public liability?

Sparklingbrook · 20/05/2016 07:23

Given the very few actual facts we know about in this nothing I have read on this thread has changed my mind about the offer of a chair being anything other than a kind gesture.

Pagwatch · 20/05/2016 07:31

Ignore me. I'm talking bollocks having been stunned into a stupor after reading about half of the thread. I couldn't read all of it though so missed stuff. Who died at the red wedding?

Jasonandyawegunorts · 20/05/2016 07:33

I do not understand

For someone who is so superior and arrogant you sure do say this a lot.

The point is that they can breastfeed in public, out among other people, and they do not have to separate themselves in order to breastfeed.

This woman wasn't asked to seperate herself from anything. She was asked if she wanted a chair, a chair in the same area she was in.

"Do you want a chair?"

"Yes, thank you"
"No, i'm happy sitting in the pool thank you"

Where has she been seperated from anyone?

Jasonandyawegunorts · 20/05/2016 07:34

78?

it's about 78 now.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 20/05/2016 07:36

If you think discrimination against breastfeeding women is inconsequential in a world awash with pimped out body parts of women, including breasts, then I invite you to think again.

Again?
Nobody has said this. You are the only person who keeps saying anything like this.
It doesn't relate to this story.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 20/05/2016 07:41

there is a perfectly safe shallow end where parents and their small children can hang out, safe from the waves but still enjoying the aquatic experience.

Actually as i have pointed out several times... even in the shallow section the waves can get pretty big, Not strong enough to knock a child over, but still big.

Each time i've pointed this out you've quoted some unrelated text. None of which has ever mentioned the shallow section being wave free.

You know why, becuase the shallow section isn't wave free.

Notihng in your favorite brochure says there are no waves. and the photos you've linked to prove there's a slope (for some reason) even show waves in the shallow part.

Yet like everything else you twist things to match your bonkers extremist views.

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