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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think this mother is right. Holiday in term time.

444 replies

derxa · 26/04/2016 12:14

Normally I think children should not be taken out of school for holidays but this mother may have a point.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3559089/Mother-four-fined-60-truancy-taking-youngest-daughter-term-time-holiday-Government-free-meant-children-s-Easter-breaks-different-times.html

Good sad face as well

OP posts:

Kitla · 03/05/2016 04:19

Not all teachers agree though that term time holidays are bad. I for one do not. The NUT for example....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-32051178

JugglingFromHereToThere · 03/05/2016 09:54

Some people arguing that having a holiday isn't a human right, more a forgoeable luxury? .....

Just reminded me that within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - I have an excellent simplified version for children with beautiful illustrations by many artists called "We are all born free" (published by Amnesty International - every home should have a copy) ....

And Article 24 is "We all have the right to rest from work and relax"

Article 16 is also concerned with the right to a family life.

Whathaveilost · 03/05/2016 10:11

And Article 24 is "We all have the right to rest from work and relax"
That doesn't translate to a week in Ibiza in a school week and not paying the expected fine though.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 03/05/2016 10:28

Basically I think such fines are unreasonable though where attendance is normally good, and I agree with others that we have a right to question them.
I believe very strongly in a good home-school partnership and feel the current regime undermines that in a variety of ways.

chilipepper20 · 03/05/2016 14:31

That doesn't translate to a week in Ibiza in a school week and not paying the expected fine though.

what doesn't it entail then? If the government says anyone who goes to Spain at any time of the year gets fined, that also is not covered under that statement.

That is, of course, unless you interpret it correctly.

AugustaFinkNottle · 03/05/2016 15:11

Trust me, if you tried taking that argument to the European Human Rights Court you would give everyone a very good laugh.

chilipepper20 · 03/05/2016 15:21

if you tried taking that argument to the European Human Rights Court

what argument? I didn't make one.

I am trying to determine, from those who seem to have a fine tuned sense of rights, what we have as rights, and when and where it is appropriate for the government to curb those rights.

Why stop at fines? I suggest we have trained border guards. if you show up at the border with a child, either you have an authorized absence form, or no plane ride from you.

tiggytape · 03/05/2016 16:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Permanentlyexhausted · 03/05/2016 18:16

I am trying to determine, from those who seem to have a fine tuned sense of rights, what we have as rights, and when and where it is appropriate for the government to curb those rights.

The government isn't curbing anyone's rights in this case. It is simply imposing a fine for taking your child out of the education system when that has not been authorised. The fact that it costs something doesn't take away the right to do it.

"We all have the right to rest from work and relax" or to use the actual UN wording that hasn't been simplified for children, Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay., simply means that no-one can legally be forced to work or be on call 24/7/365. The word 'holidays' refers to leave from work. It doesn't refer to having a few days at the seaside or jetting off to the Bahamas.

MiddleAgeMiddleEngland · 03/05/2016 18:32

Haven't read the whole thread but why didn't she just take whoever was off school on day trips and go away in the summer when presumably they would all have been off school together?

How long do the DM photographers get them to practice those faces for, I wonder? Is there a manual of how to do it?

Buttercupsandaisies · 03/05/2016 18:49

It's up to families where they holiday. Why should a family be forced to holiday in the uk in summer due to cost when they could have got abroad at Easter if holidays were all at the same time? They don't have to go abroad no but is it fair that one system favours the rich? Abroad holidays cost double in the summer and this can price people out. Poorer families don't have the luxury of just going in the summer. Yes they can holiday in the uk but it's educational to travel - to have a sense of things outside the uk.

Fair enough to stop holidays in term time but at least have a system in place to stop schools setting their own as and when especially when linked. Each school in my town had different Easter weeks inc the primaries and secondaries. That's just aggravating the situation
Like I said though our school and couple of others still authorise for holidays so it must be possible - is it not that heads have taken it to extreme with a blanket no?

honeyrider · 03/05/2016 19:22

I think days off should be the same for all schools. Here in Ireland they addressed that a while back and it's made things a whole lot easier for families planning childcare when children are in different schools.

Parents can take their children out of school for holidays during term time without the threat of penalties or fines, even some teachers take their own children out of school in term time for their family holiday and that's with 3 months off in the summer for secondary schools and 9 - 10 weeks for primary school.

chilipepper20 · 03/05/2016 19:24

The government isn't curbing anyone's rights in this case.

so the government is fining people for something should be rightfully be able to do?

chilipepper20 · 03/05/2016 19:29

The word 'holidays' refers to leave from work.

it's possible that you have leave from work but are forced to stay in your home under your definition.

I think holiday means you have leave from work and you spend it as you see fit.

It appears that there are two camps of people on this thread. People who think the government has extraordinary reach and can treat us like children, and those who think the government should back off and we as parents should take responsibility for our children's education outside of school (something, incidentally, the government says they want while simultaneously micromanaging the way we live).

Italiangreyhound · 03/05/2016 19:54

tiggytape
"It isn't really a fine - it is technically a penalty notice (like a speeding ticket in other words). "

can i ask what the difference is, I've tried Googling it and I still don't know? Please?

lurked101 · 03/05/2016 20:05

Ah chilli.. your too involved in this.

I'm guessing your a libertarian, in which case home school or private educate your children. When you use the state system you have to abide by rules which are set for the benefit of all, and sometimes influenced by the bad behaviour of some.

You can't use something that is government provided and expect the rules of provision to change for you.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 03/05/2016 20:46

I guess I'm a libertarian too then lurked but I'm sure there's plenty of us with that disposition who's DC do attend state schools - we can't all home school or go private?

chilipepper20 · 03/05/2016 20:55

I'm guessing your a libertarian, in which case home school or private educate your children.

Not sure why that follows. Libertarians can't use the public system? Who set up that rule? They pay taxes like the rest of us.

I am not a libertarian, at least many people wouldn't consider me one. I am, however, suspicious of government intrusion into private lives. They need some good reasons whenever they do intrude, and I don't think they have many in this case, especially in cases when attendance is otherwise good. They aren't then setting rules that benefit us all - they are setting rules which inconvenience and punish many people for taking their own children on vacation for a few days. it's plain ridiculous.

Fortunately for me, I have enough money to go on vacation out of term time, but I recognize other families don't have this luxury, and it's either an in term vacation, nothing, or something a lot less desirable.

lurked101 · 03/05/2016 21:17

But your taxes don't cover your child's education.

The system is designed for mass use, and part of that is agreeing to small constraints.

If you want to use government provided services your have to accept that. It's not unreasonable, the system cannot be set up cover every persons whims. It has to be set up to provide the best it can for everyone.

When you send your child to school you agree a contract, people just want to have their cake and eat it.

Permanentlyexhausted · 03/05/2016 21:48

The word 'holidays' refers to leave from work.

it's possible that you have leave from work but are forced to stay in your home under your definition.

I think holiday means you have leave from work and you spend it as you see fit.

It's not my definition. It is what the UDHR states, and since it refers to holidays with pay it is clear it is referring to leave from work. Whether you spend them at home or somewhere else is individual choice based on your individual circumstances. If you were forced to stay inside your home for the duration, you could argue the government were in breach of articles 9 and 13.

I agree there are 2 camps of people on this thread. There are those of us who see the rules for what they are, decide whether we will follow them or not, and get on with our lives (I'm in this category). Then there are those who don't want to follow the rules but attach huge importance to them and allow themselves to feel threatened, convinced that it's all a big conspiracy by the government to micromanage the lives of 60+ million people. These are the people wringing their hands over whether a headteacher authorises their kid's absence or not. These are the people who so desperately need approval that breaking a minor rule causes so much stress they have to go to the papers. Ironically these are the people who think they aren't the victims!

Permanentlyexhausted · 03/05/2016 21:51

Bold fail! The first 3 sentences are copied from chili's post at 19.29

lurked101 · 03/05/2016 21:59

Totally agree with that micro managing point!

There is no conspiracy, the old system was evidently unworkable because SOME people couldn't be trusted to follow any kind of rules. It created a lot of work for an education system that shouldn't be spending that kind of time (and therefore money) deciding who can and who can't go on holiday.

Its broard brush because it has to fit a broad number of situations and the fine has to be large enough for people to take it into consideration.

Take your kid on holiday, fine, but you are well aware of the concequences so don't complain about them, and stop bleeding blaming the schools. The comment about "creating a poisonous atmosphere" was frankly ridiculous.

228agreenend · 03/05/2016 22:04

Haven't read the whole,thread.

However, £60 is hardly much considering the cost of the holiday.

A holiday to Ibiza is a luxury, not a right.

Lucked · 03/05/2016 22:12

People are focusing on Ibiza but there was no real way the family could spend any decent time together at Easter with only 3 days with all kids off. Day trips for the older kids would have to be very short to be back for school finishing or would involved mum or partner staying home so not family time and family life.

We didn't go away this year but went to zoos and parks. Never back by 3pm. Oh then they would have to do it all again just for dd increasing the cost (double tickets for parent). We do often go away at Easter or October as we can't stand the summer heat in Europe, school holidays are already so restrictive to then impose only a trip away from home in the mire expensive summer months.

Our major problem with this would have been childcare, basically a month of juggling holidays.

tobysmum77 · 04/05/2016 07:30

People are focusing on Ibiza but there was no real way the family could spend any decent time together at Easter with only 3 days with all kids off

I agree, it's ridiculous that the family have basically been unable to enjoy time together because of the difference in holidays. The parents minimised the lost time but were fined anyway.

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