Or is the petrol station owner?

[Cloudstasteofmash]

About four weeks ago I called in to my local PS to put some petrol in my car, I rarely use this PS as it's very expensive. I normally fill up at my local Asda.

I bought £10 worth of petrol - just to see me through till I could get to my normal filling up place. I also bought a packet of crisps.

Came up to £10.39, I paid on my card.

The following day I went in to asda and half filled the tank up.

My Dh used the car and didn't bother to replace the petrol so one week later when I got in the car it was basically running off fumes so I called in local PS and put another £10 in. When I went in to the PS shop the owner went in to the back and came out with a receipt of my last transaction. He said that last time I was in the card machine was broke for one hour and did not register the petrol amount/cost and I only paid for the crisps. The recept he had shown 0.39p he was quite relaxed and said he was just showing me. I offered to pay it back. I only had £10 note on me so said I will Bob in soon and pay it. He never once asked for it. Seemed relaxed about it.

Went home checked my online banking - yep the 39p from the PS was there.

I totally forgot to go to the PS the next day or for the rest of the week. It's not in the direction I normally go and I'd been asda and put petrol in so I didn't need to go local PS.

Anyway - today I went in as me and Dh have been sharing again and not replaced so had to call in local PS to put a little in just to get me out of the village. When I went to the pump it wasn't working. I went in to the PS shop and Bobbed my head in and said ' is the pump not working?'

The owner said 'I turned it off as you owe me £10'

I said ' oh god yes, I'll pay it now'
He said ' yes but you let me down. You said you would pay next day' (I never)

I said ' Ok, I forgot, but will pay now'

He carried on saying "yes but let me down, where was my money'

I said " hang on, I tried paying buy your machine was broke, I never stole it, like I said I'll pay now'

He said ' but you let me down, you said you would pay ...

At which point I walked out of the shop.

There were people in the shop and I felt he was trying to act as if I had purposely stole petrol or tried to get out of paying.

Not sure what to do know tbh.

Should I expect the police to come?

You can refuse to believe it as much as you like, roundabout, it doesn't change the legal position.

You cannot form the intention to steal after the event!!

? Defence of tender, according to the Internet, relates to court proceedings.

Besides which, theft or not, he is entitled to refuse her custom and has done so. He can't force her to pay and she can't force him to be polite or serve her.

Cloud I don't blame you for not coming back. You did NOTHING wrong. He was a dick to you and you were very nice saying that you would pay him the petrol money.

Yes it was his error in the first place, but I doubt bigger businesses would show any flexibility in the matter.

AugustaFinkNottle
On the contrary, big businesses would simply write something like this off on the basis that it was their mistake.

I very much doubt it, Augusta. Larger businesses are not in the habit of allowing customers to come back another time to pay an acknowledged debt.

You both seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. Given that's the nearest petrol shop I'd just pay the tenner, get a receipt and ignore the fact that he was trained in customer services by Basil Fawlty.

39 p for a bag of crisps is a bargain

I doubt the police will come :)

He took it very personally that you didn't keep your word to come back the next day, neglected to factor in that you agreed to pay up following an error on their part (even though you could have said "Your mistake, your loss") and when you did arrive, with customers present, he accused you of letting him down and asking where the money was...sounds like it was an unnecessarily confrontational and unfamiliar situation...it must have been very difficult to know how to react.

Just pay what you owe so you're straight and don't give it any more headspace, you're not a thief.

He's an idiot, go in and pay the rude attendant and get a receipt. In future don't use his petrol station unless totally desperate. He'll lose out, you win, job done.

I once got undercharged at a petrol station because the attendant keyed in the wrong pump. I had a sobbing two year old with me and didn't check the amount - it was £1.27 less than I'd put in (a full £80 tank). The bastard announced over the tannoy that I hadn't paid for my petrol as I drove off. I went back in and he made me stand in a queue of 10 people to sort it out, all of them thinking I hadn't paid. So now they don't get my custom. It's no loss to me.

I very much doubt it, Augusta. Larger businesses are not in the habit of allowing customers to come back another time to pay an acknowledged debt.

Fascicle, my point is they wouldn't pursue the debt in the first place; they'd accept that it was down to their error and write it off. You can't create a legal liability out of nothing, even if the other person is conned into acknowledging it.

IAmNotAMindReader, it just seems a totally unreasonable expectation that someone should be punished (by having to wake the baby/put three screaming kids in the car/ pay for a taxi/ be late for work or sanctioned by the job centre, whatever it might be) for someone else's mistake. If they'd driven off without attempting to pay an hour would be fair enough. I think the police made a mistake applying what they'd do in that circumstance here.

Fuck him, it was his fault his shit machine was broke.

I think there are errors on both sides here.

Having agreed to pay the £10, you were somewhat unreasonable not to have done so for a week. However, people do forget things and as you had apologised and tried to pay, the owner was unreasonable to go on about it. Especially as I suspect the initial underpayment was their error, rather than a "card machine malfunction".

I'm not sure where things would stand legally though, if I am correct in my suspicion that the initial underpayment was due to their error. I don't think what happened machine didn't work - it is far more likely the person on the till put through the wrong amount. If it had been the machine, surely the transaction simply wouldn't have been processed at all? Of course, morally you should pay for the petrol regardless.

He was being a bit unreasonable not to explain that and try to pass it off as the "machine". I suspect that is because you could quite probably have simply have refused to pay if it was their error (although he would be free to refuse to serve you in future if you did so).

Likewise, I wonder what would have happened if you later they discovered they had overcharged- as you had authorised it by either paying in cash/putting in your pin/signing for it. Would he have reimbursed the OP or would it have been a case of "no corrections after the transaction has gone through?".

This post has just reminded me I still owe one of our local barber's £10 from 18 months ago!! (They don't take cards)
OK, so in my defense, my mum died that week, then I got cancer, so I was a little distracted to say the least, but I did just keep forgetting.
(Or I'd never have a tenner on me when I drive past (cringing))

I am walking in there with £20 and a huge apology tomorrow.

Just go pay the guy. Life's too short for unecessary drama.
(But get a receipt.)

Yanbu you shod have paid asap and not forgitren, and I would have told him. Here is your £10 I am not arguing with you, and leave and never use that PS again,.

AugustaFinkNottle
Fascicle, my point is they wouldn't pursue the debt in the first place; they'd accept that it was down to their error and write it off. You can't create a legal liability out of nothing, even if the other person is conned into acknowledging it.

Any examples or evidence, Augusta? Say, for example, an error is made at a supermarket till - a customer is charged £10 less than they should have been. The cashier recognises the error straight away. You think that that amount would be written off? I don't. If e.g. there's a screw up with a monthly direct debit, and an individual's mortgage payment doesn't go out, the mortgage company won't just write it off. If the tax office screws up and charges an individual a lower tax rate than it should, provided it acts within a certain time period, then it will seek to recoup the shortfall.

As for legal liability - notwithstanding the fact that no one is going to go to court for £10, the OP thought she was buying fuel at a price she was well aware of (she says it's expensive, that's why she only had £10 worth). By taking the fuel, she effectively entered into a contract with the retailer.

If a shop or say a hairdresser's accidentally undercharged someone by £10 and only noticed when reconciling at the end of the week, very much doubt the customer would hear about it again let alone find police at their door. More likely they'd dock it off the pay of the cashier who mistyped the amount.

MsHoolie's advice is good. This is very trivial, pay him what you owe. If you take the money in pennies you will be being petty.

YABU you should have made a point of dropping it in the next day or if it had been me, the same day. However PS owner also acted unreasonably.

The PS man was being ridiculous, and this would have enraged me as well. As many have pointed out, he clearly made a mistake rather than the card machine not working. A lot of petrol station trade must be passing trade where you wouldn' t see that customer again, or not for ages so he would just have had to accept the loss. But he obviuosly knows the OP and knew she would be in again. When she said she would come back soon to pay I would personally have assumed she meant the next time she was getting petrol ie in a week or two. He could have politely reminded her on the 3rd visit rather than turning off the pump, something along the lines of ' shall I put the other £10 onto the bill with this transaction or would you prefer to pay them separately'. £10 is not going to bankrupt him if it is missing for a week or 2, but if OP and her husband decided to boycott his business he could end up losing hundred or even thousands of pounds a year. Goodwill is one of the most important assets a business has. She never set out to defraud him or be in his debt.

Any examples or evidence, Augusta? Say, for example, an error is made at a supermarket till - a customer is charged £10 less than they should have been. The cashier recognises the error straight away. You think that that amount would be written off?

Obviously not, if the customer is there. But if they discover it at the end of the day, what do you suggest they're going to do about it?

the OP thought she was buying fuel at a price she was well aware of (she says it's expensive, that's why she only had £10 worth). By taking the fuel, she effectively entered into a contract with the retailer.

She fulfilled that contract by offering her card as payment, which the garage accepted. It's not her fault that they didn't take the money. There's a basic legal principle that, if you're sued for a debt, it's an absolute defence that you offered the money and the other party didn't take it.

Fasicle as an example of a big company not chasing a debt, when I worked in Marks several years ago, a gentleman purchased gift vouchers but was given £10 extra, he later tried to return it and was told to keep it and given a box of biscuits for his honesty. If big companies were concerned about small amounts, they would simply have accepted the voucher back.
Where I work we recently had a technical error that meant several people weren't charged, records could be checked and the customers chased for payment but they won't be as the error was with our equipment.

Augusta
She fulfilled that contract by offering her card as payment, which the garage accepted. It's not her fault that they didn't take the money.

How does this apply to the other examples I gave - mortgage and tax payments - where individuals are willing to pay/have provided a method of payment but are not charged/undercharged through no fault of their own? In those situations, are you saying consumers can refuse to make remedial payments because an organisation makes an error?

There's a basic legal principle that, if you're sued for a debt, it's an absolute defence that you offered the money and the other party didn't take it.

But that defence also requires a payment to be made:

37.2

(1) Where a defendant wishes to rely on a defence of tender before claim (GL) he must make a payment into court of the amount he says was tendered.

(2) If the defendant does not make a payment in accordance with paragraph (1), the defence of tender before claim will not be available to him until he does so.

www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part37#IDAALICC

A payment into court. That's a different procedure.

Augusta you said earlier: OP didn't have a legal obligation to pay the money. Defence of tender. But using that as a defence in a legal context requires payment to the court for the same sum. Why is that?

Please explain how this is a different procedure, especially since it's the only procedure mentioned so far in relation to defence of tender.