To be angry, and even a little bewildered on how to tackle this with the school?

[MaddyHatter]

DS has SN.. he has Autism, ADHD, Sensory Processing Disorder and Dyspraxia.... it makes for some very complex needs, a big one of which he CANNOT process emotion or self regulate and will go into a meltdown very suddenly.

One of the outcomes of him getting upset and frustrated and having a meltdown is that he lashes out during them, and can hurt the people near him. The school are aware of this, there are strategies in place to help him try to manage his feelings.

One of these strategies is the provision and freedom to go to a room called the Calm room, which is painted with calming colours and has cushions and bean bags...etc.

There was an incident today. Ds isnt having a good week and there is a piece of work he is flat refusing to do, and they keep trying to make him. Today they tried again and he began to get upset. The Learning Mentor tried to get him to go to her classroom to calm down, but his auditory processing issues meant he didn't understand and he thought she was going to try and make him do this work, and he lashed out.

He has been suspended, which i nominally support, even if i'm not happy, as in my eyes they're punishing him for part of his disability..

However, i asked DS why if he was getting angry, didn't he ask to use the Calm room (its right opposite his classroom) and he told me he wasnt allowed in there because some of the yr6 girls were using it as a PE changing room.

WTF?!?!

Now.. i appreciate at 10/11yo the girls may not wish to change in the classroom with the boys, and an alternative should be provided... but WHY THE FUCK are the school letting them use THE CALM ROOM which is there for children like my son to use as and when they need it?

I am so fucking angry... we spent AGES getting it through to him that he could remove himself from a situation and go to that room if he felt the need to help prevent him going into meltdown, and now, he has to check if its being used as a fucking changing room and isn't allowed in there if the girls belongings are... and has now ended up having a violent meltdown and hit a teacher and got suspended.

I just don't know how to tackle this or even where to start.

No claw, we haven't had the draft yet, I presume that's what we are waiting for.

Needs I have seen my son being 'encouraged' into or out of rooms before, you're right, it ain't pretty.
Dragged by the wrist, carried bodily by 3 members of staff, pushed out of or into rooms is a more accurate description.

You should have had the draft 8 weeks ago!

IF you feel an EHC plan will help guide the school with their understanding of your ds's needs.

An EHC plan unfortunately isn't a magic wand to having needs meet. Teachers wanting to understand and trying is far more valuable in my experience.

Frusso gave some really good advice about points to discuss with school. Again IF you feel they will understand and try.

If not, still chase up EHC and look for a school with more understanding.

Enter we've seen that too, and DS has described it happening to him. We've had the (otherwise good) Head of Inclusion saying to us in a meeting, 'Of course, sometimes we might gently guide a child physically into a safe space', to be countered by DS saying 'No you don't! You push me! You bloody push me and yank me and then you wonder why I can't stand it.'

Note that this is a child with raised sensory sensitivity (yes, potato, that's a real thing, not a wishywashy made up excuse blah blah).

To be fair, the school's deputy head intervened at this point to say that they were clearly letting him down and needed to look quite hard at their guidelines for physical contact.

Claw, i don't know whats going on .

The application went in at the end of october some time. They agreed to assess and i saw his case worker at the end of january, she came to see me and went into the school to see DS. We had an appt with a Paediatrician over easter break. There was a deadline that was today.

We haven't had a draft EHC plan, so i'm assuming, thats what was supposed to come back to the school? Short of phoning his lovely Case Worker to ask whats going on, i don't know else to do, i asked the SENCo and she said she'd had nothing.

It's horrid isn't it enter

I actually get the Heebie jeebies when schools tell me they have a calm room and won't send any of my kids if they won't let me see it,ive seen far to many totally bare windowless rooms very obviously used as cells to be comfortable with many of them.

Have you ever seen a spit hood? Lots use those as well.

And the amount of schools who use positive handling (don't get me wrong it's a great tool when used correctly) but they use it as a punitive measure or totally skip the lower level aspects of it when it is not warranted to skip it, weird that the ones like this always skip the notification requirement of it and any paperwork.

I know a kid whose parents reported a school and 3 teachers until she was blue in the face to anybody who was prepared to listen to her, the outcome of every report was "legitimate positive handling no blame to school or staff" and social workers landed on her doorstep as she was 'hostile' to professionals (and apparently her child didn't have a disability despite 2 dx's) all manor of distress was caused until she found out that another child at the school had for what ever reason recorded what happened and she was handed a copy of the recording that went to the police, the rest is a national newspaper story and some criminal justice stats.

Apart from the result it's not a unusual story

This thread (I've just RTFT) has made me really sad. For the OP, who is not being unreasonable in her expectation that the calm room should not have been getting used as storage for other pupils' belonging (which would appear to be the case) and the lack of scaffolding to ensure the task could be completed; but also for the lack of understanding and unwillingness to have reasoned discussion shown by many - on both sides of the debate - regarding inclusion.

A few comments have really stood out for me though:

If there is a TA in the class, they have been put there specifically for that child and paid for with that child's funding. So the teacher is free to teach others without SEN.
Not in every case. I have taught classes where there are students who have SN severe enough that they can't access the work of the class without significant differentiation - sometimes requiring completely different tasks. This is well beyond the normal differentiation provided as a matter of course. These students however are often not supported by TAs due to lack of funding - I'm in Scotland and I think things are slightly different here.

City why does an SEN child take up more time than a child without SEN?
As above. It's the time outside the classroom that often is of greatest significance. To give you an example; if I teach 280 children per week, over the entire age range of secondary, that means I teach S1 core subjects up to Higher classes. I should nominally spend say 10 hours per week planning/marking etc (rounding figures here!). I do spend far more than this but that's for another thread. I'm assuming that most would agree that the time I spend preparing for classes should be roughly in proportion with the time I spend teaching them - so that would equate to 20% for senior classes, 40% for my middle year classes and 40% to divide between my 5 junior classes (who contribute around 180 of my 280 students). So I would be spending about 8% of my preparation time on each S1 class - about 48 minutes for the whole class. I've been in the situation where I have spent a minimum of 90 minutes - 2 hours PER WEEK differentiating lessons for a specific student in a junior class. So that's 20% of my total time potentially on an individual student, for 1 hour of teaching per week. My time is finite; I can assure anyone who thinks teachers have an easy job that I've NEVER managed to stick to my "contracted" hours in a week - but there is a limit which means that there are definitely other children who have lost out as a direct result of this. Maybe there are one or two who would have benefited from more challenging tasks, or who needed a bit extra feedback, or a lesson that was "okay" but could have been better.

One of the things I like about accommodating SEN children in mainstream schools is the way that the NT children see, understand, and develop acceptance of others who may need alternative or different ways to handle things. I think it's a bit of a shame if you think something unusual = interrupted learning.
I would completely agree with this - as long as those interruptions are rare - 5 times a day would perhaps be seen as a problem by some parents.

As I have said, DS is clever, he is capable of doing the work, his issues are around adapting the lesson to a way he can manage it. (OP)
That's great - and it should be relatively straightforward for the class teacher to adapt instructions etc - although admittedly it would appear not to have happened for this task. I wonder how many other adjustments the teacher is making though potentially for other students that you may not be aware of, for other students who are not as clever or capable; but who are not entitled to 1-1 support? Equally, I'm not sure that the entire class routine can or should be as the result of one child's specific needs. I don't teach primary though so accept I'm not in the best place to comment. I suppose I'm wondering here where the line is between making suitable adaptations (eg the calm room) to include, and running an entire classroom to meet the needs of that child (eg sticking to a rigid routine). I'm NOT saying this is wrong - I've taught ASD children (and many other SN children) for years, and my DN is ASD - I'm just asking the question.

Creative writing and thinking of ideas is extremely hard for kids with ASD.

I have a report from a SAL observation of Ds in his old classroom.

Children were given a storyboard and asked to think of ideas for a story.

Even when broken down into story character, main event, and ending, he couldn't do it.

Even with help of TA encouraging him to 'use his imagination' he just copied the ideas of the person sitting next to him.

Ds is a child with a high IQ, above average academically, 'superior' reading age etc, etc

zzzzzzzzzz

For example your gung ho attitude to reasonable adjustment might find you on the wrong side of the law in the work place

What gung ho attitude?

I think the fundamental problem potato is that you don't believe in comprehensive education.

Why is that a problem? I dearly wish I didn't spend a good percentage of my salary on two children's school fees (there are no staff discounts in primary fees) but we are able to and I think we are buying our children a better education. I don't think the current system works and I believe in streaming - it's not the same as segregation which has so many negative connotations.

Isn't streaming into different schools a way of specialising education to benefit the majority or all? Whilst this is taking the thread off tack, it boils down to my notion of looking after the majority. At times it makes life harder for an individual but sadly, it can't be helped.

Do you believe in streaming within a year group? How is streaming via schools eg. grammar vs comp. any different?

The school my children attend isn't selective (as in there is no entrance examination) and nor am I anti-inclusion. I think that in some instances, specialist needs are best protected in a specific environment. As I've said, I don't pretend to have the brain power or education to decide where where those lines lie, but when a child is violent, it seems to be a clear line that shouldn't be crossed.

In this specific case, the OP said how her son lashes out at the cornerer when he feels cornered. What if he was cornered by a child who didn't realise they were doing so?

NB teachers DO differentiate for every child in their class

Formally plan or are able to adapt work slightly for each child? It's the latter and the bulk of the work is set at a middle-ability target.

Lancelottie grow up.

I hope it comes across in my posts that I'm interested in all (intelligent) posts. I haven't dismissed any opinions as invalid and am genuinely reading carefully and taking it all on board.

MargotsDevil

I love to see these questions properly answered. I know the thread's kind of off at a tangent but, as I just said, I'm reading with genuine interest.

Maddy, the draft should be sent to both you and school.

LA's often drag their heels and don't follow timescales.

Maybe chase up LA and remind them of timescales and the urgency as your Ds has been excluded from school

YANBU.
That is part of his plan. If sometimes he can and sometimes he can't use it, then there is no consitancy so how is it expected to work?
Follow through op.

Herecomes where would academically able, non SEN children who are violent go?

In my experience in the 3 schools Ds has attended, the majority of children who do the hitting, bullying, teasing are the children without SN's

My friends son has a ECHP that specifies he has 2:1 support at all times inc breaks and lunch time, it includes specialist equipment, the ECHP is brilliant.

His funding has been paid to the school yet he is actually allowed by the school to attend for 3 hours per week (and that's been since the start) his support is one dinner lady for 1 of those hours (not even the two adults he needs) the school say that is all they can accomadate.

Another placement has been found yet the school won't release any of his funding nor agree to removal from school roll so he can't go there yet.

I wonder how many NT kids are missing out because the school got handed a pile of extra cash then refused to allow a disabled child to attend.

The kid is 5 they had a year to obtain the support for him and the LA is attempting to resolve the issue with the school

i just had another look at the work and basically called up and spoke to the HT and politely told him that we weren't going to do it, because i don't think its acceptable, and if they're going to send work home, they need to provide the frame work or examples for ME so i know what they want.

I just looked at the maths.. its up to 4 figure multiplication that they expect him to do via the column method.

I dont know how to do those! I haven't done column multiplication since I was at fucking primary school.. do they really expect me to sit here and swot up so i can then get him to do them? Fuck that for a lark.

herecomethepotatoes

I would see streaming within a school very different to streaming into different schools.

In school streaming represents providing differentiated education to meet the needs of various groups in areas where it is suitable, whilst still encouraging a mixing of different type and needs students, which provides preparation for life outside of school. This means children can learn about differences and learn to get along and see how all people can make adjustments to make a better society for all.

Separate school streaming to me is very different. It separates all of the time, does not provide as hared experience between people with differing needs. Pupils do benefit from mixing with all different types of students.

I will say, as I can see from my posts I may seem to think inclusion is the only answer, I do not. I am a big supporter of having specialised schools, in fact we are in the process of fighting the LEA to have our DD moved to a special school, as the specialist provision she attends now cannot meet her needs, which means she only actually gets to attend school for 1 to 2 days a week. In the same way, some very academic children may required a highly academic environment aimed purely at G&T children, which again is an educational need which should be catered for.

However there has been much said on this thread, and your own description of your idea, which suggests that having children with SEND in mainstream schools are too damaging for NT children and they should be separated out somewhere else. This is not right for many children, who cannot have their academic needs met in the special schools available.

The vast majority of children, be they neuro typical, have SEND or be very bright, will be able to access and even thrive in a mixed mainstream school, as long as the correct provisions are made and provided to the children who need them.

I do feel concerned about your belief in "it boils down to my notion of looking after the majority. At times it makes life harder for an individual but sadly, it can't be helped. ".

This goes against all of the hard won rights covered by the disability discrimination laws we have in place, which are their to make sure even people with additional needs can have their basic rights met.

If a child with SN is prone to lashing out, it's the responsibility of the school to implement effective strategies to reduce the incidence of it, and to ensure adequate supervision eg to make sure that other pupils know not to torment the child when s/he is (to borrow OP's terminology) 'amber', to have a calm space for the child which is accessible at all times.

I heard of a school where one child (who had SN) hit another over the head with an object, which meant that child had to have hospital treatment. The parents complained and were pretty much told to shut up and stop being overprotective - the thing is, the parents were not demanding the child with SN be excluded, they were asking the school to do a risk assessment and put procedures in place such as proper supervision.

zzzz

You're a genius!

Just took your advice and phoned to chase the EHCP, and was told the delay was medical, but they'd chase it for me as apparently its rather delayed and something about it supposed to have been done in february.

Phoned me back in less than 10 minutes and told me medical was in typing and would be with them ASAP, but then she said that the EHCP had bee agreed and they'd probably be issuing the draft in the next couple of days, or early next week.

Result!

Thank you for the thoughtful post from a teacher's perspective MargotDevil. I am learning a lot reading this thread.

Maddy brilliant news!

Will you be naming this school on EHCP?

I just want you to know there are some very good mainstream schools out there. Some with sensory rooms, OT's, SALT, CBT etc, all onsite, some with specialist units attached etc etc

That's great, Maddy! At least this thread has had some useful and positvie outcomes. Sorry if it git a bit derailed.

i expect so, i there really isnt any better schools around at primary level, not for SEN anyway!

His doesn't have a great rating OFSTED 'needs improvement' but its because of the old staff that have now left.. the HT came in September 14 (after 2 years of Supply HT's and a ridiculously high staff turnover and a LOT of NQT's coming and going) is pulling it up by its boot straps bit by bit and i can't fault him or the SENCo on the work they've put in to make it work for DS.. they just keep missing the mark with some stuff, and its mostly with recognising these big meltdowns are incoming tbh.

They're getting better, we had 5 incidents between September and Christmas, and only 2 this side, one of which was down to his world book day and his aversion to costumes, and they dealt with that with an in-school exclusion and just had him working with one of the DHT's all day. And this one.