To have just realised that Mr Collins got Mrs Collins in the family way.

[squoosh]

Have just re-read Pride & Prejudice for the first time in yonks and at the end Mr Collins mentions 'dear Charlotte’s situation, and his expectation of a young olive-branch. How had I not noticed that before?

I'd always imagined dear Charlotte avoiding that messy business by keeping him occupied with his sermon writing and his gardening and his pash on Lady Catherine.

But she was a woman who knew what she wanted so I wouldn't be surprised if she was the one who took conjugal matters in hand.

Good old P&P, the book that keeps on giving.

everysongbird Yes!! Its Sam Riley- and he's a charisma free zone! And Douglas Booth is far too young to be Mr Bingley. It had mixed reviews but I loved it, although I also liked Abraham Lincoln, Vampire slayer and Horns

I have to read the book again after this thread. I agree it's hardly romance. The girls have to marry up to avoid being thrown out on the street. Its sheer luck that Jane marries someone she loves, but I remain to be convinced that Lizzy loves Darcy. She loves Pemberley. And she was horrible to Collins when he was trying to stop the family living in penury

Ah now. Mr Collins wasn't doing an entirely selfless thing by trying to land a Bennet bride. He probably thought 'Wahey, I've heard a couple of them are really good looking and I hold the ace card. My luck is in!'.

I'd forgotten about the zombie P&P, I'll have to give it a watch.

Oh and speaking of irreverent re-boots if anyone would like to watch Lost in Austen I'm happy to post my DVD copy on to them. I've been blitzing my house and L in A is sitting in a charity shop bound bag.

It is strange, I LOVED P and P, can quote great bits of it off by heart, I once took drugs and walked around a festival with two friends pretending to be Mr Darcy, Miss Bingley and Elizabeth, walking along a path that was too narrow for three but I never re read it now. I think I prefer Mansfield Park out of all of them, even though Captain Wentworth is clearly the hottest bloke in all of JA (let's face it, Edmund is not at all appealing).

Perhaps I just read it too much in my teens.

"I remain to be convinced that Lizzy loves Darcy. She loves Pemberley."

I always feel this gets terribly misinterpreted in our more materialistic times! For JA, though, the two things are much closer than they are today. It's not a materialistic falling in love with the wealth of the estate so much as a falling in love with a man who is a socially responsible landlord, a good 'master' to servants, a supportive landlord to tenants. It's at Pemberley that she sees this side of him - and the beauties of the estate very much become signals of his taste and judgement. She doesn't throw off Collins because he's poor but because he's an utter idiot.

And about Lydia - any woman who had run away unmarried with a bloke would never fully recover her reputation. Had Wickham not been forced to marry her and the truth got out, her life would have been over. Etiquette would have dictated that no woman could visit her because she would be a 'polluting influence' (the life of middle class women known to be living with men in a relationship that didn't involve marriage was miserable). She would have been persona non grata socially, and only a shade away from being considered a prostitute by men. More than that, the 'virtue' of her sisters would have been called into question, because this kind of behaviour was considered to have a genetic or environmental element to it (bad genes or bad upbringing). By bringing off the marriage with Wickham, Darcy very much keeps open the possibility of marrying Elizabeth, and of Jane marrying Bingley.

How much could anyone really love their betrothed in those days, they were hardly left alone long enough to have a decent conversation. You'd just have jump in with both feet and hope you quite liked their company and pray to God that they wouldn't turn out to be an abusive bastard.

Oh, I think there would be plenty of chances for conversation, you just wouldn't be completely on your own as much. But people weren't used to the same levels of privacy as we are in general, what with more densely occupied housing for the poor and servants standing around for the rich.

I absolutely love Lost In Austen. (As does 10yo dd, who was introduced to Austen by it).

I haven't seen the BBC version, but Tom Hollander's Mr Collins would get no complaints at all from me and as for Matthew Macfadyen's Darcy? That man would be nothing less than a genius in the sack in my daydreams anyway

P&P is super-quotable, I'm both relieved and delighted to see that I'm not the only nerd person who does this

I agree about Mr Bennet - what a total arse. The older I get, the more I notice it. He is so irresponsible about his children's future - hasn't made any effort to actually save for them because he assumed he would have a son and by they time they realised they wouldn't it was 'too late' (even though Lydia is now 15, so it must have been clear for a while that it might not happen) - and constantly undermines his wife and encourages her children to do the same. I'm not surprised she's a bit hysterical - she's treated like an idiot by everybody and knows that her children will live in penury unless at least one of them marries well.

He could have stopped trying for a son after Mary - at that point, it was pretty obvious that they had a tendency to have girls, and any additional child would be a risky gamble.

Also, he could have died in an accident before getting around to fathering a son in the first place - he should have started saving the moment Jane was born.

How much could anyone really love their betrothed in those days, they were hardly left alone long enough to have a decent conversation. You'd just have jump in with both feet and hope you quite liked their company and pray to God that they wouldn't turn out to be an abusive bastard.

I think that to an extent prospective mates were much better 'vetted' than they are today. They tended to come from one's own neighbourhood or social circle. Or, if they weren't local, they had 'letters of introduction' from reputable friends in other places. I suspect that letters from parents went flying to and calls were paid on people who had knowledge of a man if that man started paying particular attention to one's daughter. It was no guarantee I suppose, but better than nowadays where you may not know a thing about who your son or daughter is dating until they're practically at the altar. I suppose Wickham was an exception to this rule, but then again being in an 'elite' regiment as an officer was probably considered to mean a good character in and of itself (witness how he was forced to resign after the Lydia scandal).

Blimey shove! That is an incredibly generous interpretation of Lizzy's intentions I don't think it was materialistic, but women were virtually every invisible once they married. I think she attracted by the idea of living in comfort for the rest of her days, and so what? Her family were virtually at risk of being in the poor house. Love and romance are a luxury of those who can afford to support themselves. squoosh No Collins wasn't entirely selfless! But he could (and eventually did) marry any eligible girl. He saw marriage as a way around the entail. If he'd married a complete unknown, she would take a dim view of a hysterical old woman and her spinster daughters living in her home!

My parents had an arranged marriage, and that is exactly how it is across the pond They met and married within 6 weeks. I doubt they knew anything about each other, apart from what their families knew about each other. They do have a bit of a Mr and Mrs Bennett relationship, so I take P&P a bit to heart when I read it!

I'm trying to decide if I knew Charlotte was up the duff or not. I know the book by heart so I'm thinking I did pick up on it, but it's not something JA majors on.

David Bamber was the Mr Collins for me. Greasy, slimy, and utterly deluded self-important.

But I found the Keira Knightley version very unconvincing and there were a fair few moments that were out of keeping with JA's novel (like meeting in the field in the wee small hours in their nightwear with outer coats). Plus there is only one Mr Darcy for me, and it ain't potato face Matthew McFadden.

I loved Persuasion to whoever mentioned that upthread, actually I love all of Austen.

For JA it's always about duty!! She's writing against a Rousseauvian school who prioritise independence from social mores and use of individual sensibility to determine 'right' (think: Mary Hays, Jacobin novels more generally). The emphasis is on the social links that bind a paternalistic society together, so Darcy's benign occupation of his aristocratic role, his attentions to the well-being of those in his service, is vital to challenging Lizzie's view of him as simply selfish and self-absorbed.

One of the many areas where she's this strange mix of really Tory yet middle class politics and early feminism!!

This thread is completely brilliant and Shovetheholly's posts in particular!

And the thing about Mr Collins is his entitlement. He turns up and simply expects to be given a bride, without allowing the girls much choice. He's horrible to those who depend on him and brownnosingly prostrate before those above him in the social scale. (the rosings chimneys!!)

Well, ahem, thank you countess!! But I did write on and teach JA at uni so absolutely can't claim these are all my own original thunks. I don't deserve the credit...

He turns up and simply expects to be given a bride, without allowing the girls much choice.

Yes! And he's so confident that he immediately makes a beeline for the beautiful Jane. No faltering nerves for our Mr Collins.

Yes, OK, I'll admit his brown-nosing to Lady Catherine makes him particularly odious, but would it not have just been the way of things in those days? He was a fairly wealthy man of respectable standing in need of a wife, and his cousin conveniently had 5 daughters! Isn't that what call the men are doing vat the ball? Choosing women to marry? They would assume one of them would marry them. Bingley and Darcy are basically bride shopping too!

raisedbyguineapigs I have to admit I'm on the fence about the idea of arranged marriages, although they should never be forced arranged marriages. After my first disaster of a marriage I often thought about how my mum and our next door neighbour tried to push me and her son together before I met my exH (and especially when I was dating him!). If I had been wiser I would have let myself be pushed and seen what happened, he really was a nice young man. Of course by the time I was divorced he had married someone else. I think if arranged marriages had been the norm for me I could have been very happy with him.

But then again, I wouldn't have met my wonderful DH and had my two lovely sons. So, life turns out the way it should in the end.

For JA it's always about duty!! She's writing against a Rousseauvian school who prioritise independence from social mores and use of individual sensibility to determine 'right' (think: Mary Hays, Jacobin novels more generally).

But ... independence from social mores is not really doable?

Like, Wickham eloping with Lydia ... it wouldn't be a big deal nowadays (except that she's underage, of course ...) but the social mores of the time mean that her reputation will be ruined.

She could declare her independence from the social mores, but that wouldn't change the fact that the marriage prospects of her sisters would be ruined if she doesn't marry Wickham, et cetera.

Not sure if that's what you mean, I didn't study the subject, but ... how exactly does one prioritise independence from social mores without harming either oneself or others in the process?

I haven't seen the BBC version

Get out.