to wonder how the country will cope with hundreds of thousands more people each year?

[evilcherub]

If the UK is going to continue to have immigration of hundreds of thousands every year (which is more likely if we don't leave the EU) and the Tories apparently having no real interest in building more genuinely affordable homes (because lower house prices do not bring in votes for the Tories), then where are the millions of extra people and families going to live (when there is already a massive housing crisis and homelessness is going through the roof)? Also, what about all the extra schools needed, the extra hospitals (when at the moment they cannot cope and the Tories want to privatise them anyway), the jobs etc? Unless you are well off/bought your home years ago and have a well-established, well paying job, then immigration means extreme and expensive competition for housing, school places, healthcare, jobs etc. I just don't see it ending well.

If you are talking about the current refugee crisis, what reason do we have to believe that other countries (Greece, Lebanon, Turkey, France, Sweden) can cope better? So what should one do with the refugees? Other European countries have already taken in far more and spent far more money on it than Britain, so why is Britain a special case?

There is a strong argument for claiming that the situation in the Middle East, in particular the rise of fanatical Muslim groups, has been exacerbated by the Iraqi war. Most European countries were against the war. So we leave the EU and let them deal with the refugees. Nice.

mrsmorton good point! We need a seat at the table on these discussions!

paulanka maybe you should read my previous posts as well. Please don't make unfounded assumptions.

There's obviously a debate to be had about this, but parts of this thread so far are less debate and more wild, phobic speculation. To my mind (as a non-EU foreigner living here permanently) the fault here is with the government, rather than the immigrants who are being scapegoated. Housing, school places, healthcare, jobs (which the OP names as being problem areas) - all resolvable with strong, consistent government policy.

That doesn't just mean build, build, build - things like tightening up work controls so that the black market for jobs and "cash in hand" work shrinks would have a massive impact. I understand that in France, Germany, Austria and elsewhere, this is much less endemic - there isn't a sense that you can arrive today speaking five words of the local language and get a badly paid job tomorrow. Round my bit of London, you can get your car washed and valeted for a tenner by a team of 3/4 guys - doesn't take a genius to see that they are not being paid the minimum wage.

I'd also like more acknowledgement - from the political parties as well as the ordinary anti-immigration commentators on threads like this - that a huge number of nurses*, cleaners, carers, teachers etc are foreign, and to explain how the gap will be bridged if we restrict EU nationals coming over.

*One in seven, according to the Telegraph

Essentialhummus - excellent post.

Unfounded assumptions? I think you might have made a couple of those when you decided to ask two pro immigration posters whether they were immigrants, yet no one else...

God it's so bloody tragic that people still use words like 'furriners' and 'little Englanders' when others are actually trying g to have a sensible reasonable discussion about concerns.

Seriously haven't these idiots learned anything since the Gordon Brown racist debarcle lost labour the last election.

We are a small island. We have limited school places and hospital records.

Of course we should take our share of asylum seekers but those coming to better their economic circumstances must be invited In to fill posts on a news basis.

What the fuck is wrong with that. It's common sense.

Of course politicians generally love the EU as its where they go to high paid jobs and crew travel after they get voted out here.

It's an old boys club on an international scale.

The whole of Neil Kinnocks family are there. Nepotism at its worst.

The Eu isn't working for its citizens its for the political elite.

I think the ability to buy a house is less to do with immigration and more to do with but to let landlords, right to buy and a lack of new house building.
I think it's fair to conclude that houses are expensive as we don't have enough of them.
Housing becomes short for various reasons:

1. Smaller households - rather than 4 people in a house, 2 people in a house.
2. Housing stock destroyed.
3. More people to house.

Somehow, I think our current problems are due to Number 3 (and partly to No. 1).

Most notably, the favouring of the service/financial sectors over manufacturing which has led to a massive rise in house prices and property shortage and population concentration in the SE.
Now, that is definitely an issue - internal migration - but I can't believe that immigration from the rest of the world has played no part in house price rises at all. Population increase in the UK is mostly driven (so far as I can find out) by immigration. Most of those migrants seem to aim at the prosperous south east. Where house prices are through the roof, and climbing.

So is the only answer the Ponzi scheme of more and more people? Sooner or later, the world's population is going to top out (and I hope, for the sake of the planet, decline slowly) so as a species we need to work out how to cope with that. Relying on immigrants to keep the country going just delays it.

It bothers me. I like the countryside - I really value it. I'd vote Brexit if I thought it would let us reduce immigration, but I don't think it will.

NB I'm not anti-immigration. I have plenty of friends who are immigrants. I'm just not very keen on population increase in an already crowded country.

There's also an argument here for massively increasing EU federalism.

If there's less difference politically between what used to be Turkey and what used to be the UK, there's less need to up sticks between the two.

I'd also like more acknowledgement - from the political parties as well as the ordinary anti-immigration commentators on threads like this - that a huge number of nurses, cleaners, carers, teachers etc are foreign, and to explain how the gap will be bridged if we restrict EU nationals coming over.*

A couple of years training is all it will take. We've had the problem of needing foreign workers to fill gaps for over a decade so there has been time to resolve this issue for a long time...including even training very specialist roles like doctors.

evil are you in London?

I tried to watch the Mayoral debate last night but it was too painful.

Also I was waiting for someone to say "overpopulation" and they didn't.

some people genuinely think it's a sign of progress that we have to build up and up and up in order to accommodate everyone. My dad is one of those. I don't know what to do. Also I feel I have to keep my gob shut because I'm a bit like Priti Patel - my fault for having an immigrant parent. Apparently this means I'm "hypocritical" for worrying about uncontrolled immigration. Quite how I'm responsible for the actions of people who existed before I was born, I couldn't say....!

also think there's a massive difference when someone comes to the UK to fill a skill shortage.

We are a small island. Where do you propose to put everyone?

True. With a population density of 256/km2 the UK is much better off than those cesspits of poverty and degradation known as San Marino (455/km2), Jersey (774/km2) or Gurnsey (990/km2).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countries

Or not.

Clearly, the answer to a better standard of living in the UK is to increase our population massively. Unless I have missed the outpouring of people fleeing San Marino, Jersey and Gurnsey ?

But our Euphemistically termed flexible Labour market is touted by some as the reason previous immigrants have helped the economy whereas Sweden as the opposite example has had historically very low rates of working for its immigrants years after arrival.

I agree though that lots of !ow skill low pay such as car valetters does not do much for the actual liveable fabric of the UK as opposed to the economy: casual labour for well off folk.

Do not forget that if we stay in the EU then when Turkey join millions more will want to come. Nothing personal against Turkey but I feel the weight of numbers will overwhelm us and also be an open door for terrorists.

And incidentally, re buy-to-let landlords, people go into buy-to-let as not only are they pretty much guaranteed an income, it's a very good income compared to (say) and ISA. And at the same time, they are also pretty much guaranteed that the property will increase in value.

If there were enough houses to go round, rents would be lower, house prices would not increase at over the rate of inflation, and buy-to-let would look much less attractive.

The housing crisis is a LOT more complicated than lack of supply, unfortunately - though of course that is an issue. One of the huge issues is the use of property as an investment, and particularly the flight of mobile global capital to booming housing markets where cash is 'safe' (London). Immigration has nothing to do with that - many of these people are absentee owners! Ensuring that such wealth is taxed so that the UK economy can recoup some cash from the alpha wealthy who do this may be part of the solution. Making buy-to-let less attractive as an investment may be another part of it (this is already beginning), as may be developing some kind of tax on over-occupation, to release stock and capital.

What many are failing to see or accept is that we have a ageing population who are a net drain on resources (I know they paid their due for years/fought for our country etc!!) and are living longer - that needs to be offset my more economic active folks - many of whom are migrants

True. With a population density of 256/km2 the UK is much better off than those cesspits of poverty and degradation known as San Marino (455/km2), Jersey (774/km2) or Gurnsey (990/km2).
England has a higher population density than the Netherlands. And not everyone wants to live in a city. And we have to grow food somewhere... With global warming and climate instability, food security might become an issue.

But hey, let's just build on all the farmland. Who gives a fuck about wildlife? Open space?

Paulanka sorry for leaving you out. Are you an immigrant? Is that better. More to the point am I a recent immigrant? Guess. You might be surprised.

I don't see how the current situation is tenable. I'm voting Brexit.

Yes, I agree, Shove, that is part of the problem. But lack of supply is a major issue round here: people move out of London and buy, pricing locals out of the market. and not every Londoner is selling to a Russian oligarch.

The housing crisis is a LOT more complicated than lack of supply, unfortunately - though of course that is an issue. One of the huge issues is the use of property as an investment, and particularly the flight of mobile global capital to booming housing markets where cash is 'safe' (London). Immigration has nothing to do with that - many of these people are absentee owners! Ensuring that such wealth is taxed so that the UK economy can recoup some cash from the alpha wealthy who do this may be part of the solution. Making buy-to-let less attractive as an investment may be another part of it (this is already beginning), as may be developing some kind of tax on over-occupation, to release stock and capital.

London is a financial capital; the UK benefits enormously from the financial services sector. Tax the wealth and it will no longer be a financial capital.

From a purely personal and selfish perspective, I LOVE how green the uk is. I like that we have lots of empty space. It won't be the same when it's covered in new towns.

I don't think people take that point seriously enough Lume.

Farmers land being squeezed really worries me for the future. That's if we just stand still on immigration. The population grows year on year with more births than deaths.

And not everyone wants to live in a city.

Not everyone can live where they want anyway. Your point is ?