To ask if you've all heard about TTIP?

[GooseberryRoolz]

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

38 degrees petition re TTIP:

secure.38degrees.org.uk/pages/ttip_home

'Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation'

attributed to one of the founders of the EU - Jean Monnet

that scares me as much as ttip

If we come out of the EU we will simply have to negotiate our own version of TTIP. There is a lot of scaremongering about TTIP mostly by people with their own agendas.

Surprised it wasn't brought up on QT tonight.

On the David Owen thread there were lots of Remain who were happy to accept TTIP without question. Sleepwalking into disaster.

The EU would rather we accepted our role as mushrpoms. Kept in the dark and fed on bullshit.

Or mushrooms even!

Make no mistake, we are signing up to TTIP. The only question is do we negotiate as part of a powerful block or are we forced to roll over.

We need an agreement with the US. Outside of the EU, we have zero leverage.

HelpfulChap's post here isn't true - unless these "lots of Remain" posters have turned up in the last few posts on the David Owen thread.

Otherwise, I didn't see a single poster on that thread who was "happy to accept TTIP without question", Brexit or Bremain.

There are actually some very informative posts on that thread, but unfortunately you have to wade through quantities of bitching to find them. I hope this thread doesn't go the same way.

Should we be cross-posting this on the Brexit-Brexin thread?

When I was little, an 'innie' or an 'outie' was a bellybutton

TTIP hasn't been ratified or agreed by the EU as yet.

One of the reasons it is taking so long is because the EU has far more bargaining power than the countries given as examples. TTIP is a worry, but if negotiated well it could be beneficial to EU business and have minimised risks.

For example the other countries talked about in similar deals

Investor State Dispute Settlements (ISDS) are a complicated trade agreement tool and are part of trade agreements already. For example UK firms have brough ISDS cases against 42 countries to protect their investments in the past. In its current form it is being consulted upon by the EU and it is likely that because of the EU's strong position provisions will be put in that allow governments to regulate and rule whilst also protecting investments.

Also, a new trade agreement would have to be agreed with the US if we opt out of the EU, the government will be keen to sign it and the terms will most likely be worse as we have less bargaining power. The EU is the US's biggest trading partner, in terms of total trade and the UK alone would be 7th, but that may change if we exit the EU because of the number of financial services the US banks do in London with EU based firms and financial institutions.

TTIP is being used at the minute by the brexit group to highlight the risks of staying in the EU, often with a trumpeted "They could sell off the NHS" (ignoring the 22012 act which virtually does so).

Trade is sexy all of a sudden and its interesting :)

Sorry didn't quite finish a sentence there..

If you read broadsheets/are interested in politics, this has been massive news for a few years. I agree that the Brexiters are using it to further their own aims.

I'm glad it's being talked about, twofingers.

And in now more detail than just "Brexit - because TTIP!"

As the OP says, how can one be sure what the interaction with Brexit be?

My own judgement is we'll get the fuzzy end of the trade lollipop if we're left agreeing trade deals with the US (and indeed EU, which we'll need) in a post-Brexit UK.

I'm an undecided, but this is a strong influence pushing me towards Bremain.

TTIP and TPP are just some of the reasons why UK should exit out of EU. Of course Obama is encouraging us not to break away, but that is because USA will gain financially from these two plans. TTIP will usher in a swathe of privatisation of the NHS.

The only reason why NHS is in a financial mess is because of the large increase in population that happened too quickly and infrastructure could not be added to. It's not to do with people living longer (forget that crap), it's not to do with patients asking for more sophisticated surgery (medical innovation happens when it happens). I cannot 'out' myself but I will tell you that I have worked for years in DH/NHS administration and I will tell you categorically the reason NHS is in a mess is due to high immigration level.

Most of those who come in as refugees or are allowed to stay for humanitarian reasons, do not work for many, many years because some of them are, frankly, unemployable. That means no tax or NI is received from hundreds of thousands of individuals. Instead, taxpayer money is paid to them in the form of: housing benefit, child benefit, and they do not have to pay CTax or at the most they will pay a fraction. Those that do work it is usually not well-paid, so they are in receipt of working credit, tax credit, etc. Even those who never work from Day 1 of arriving here will get a State Pension.

Where do you think that money is coming from?

The aim of the EU (all parties, regardless of what they say on TV) is to bring down the standard of living for everyone. The name of the game is globalisation, power and control. That is why the powerful are driving through supranational global governance. The first part of the plan is to have EU-USA in a mutual firm embrace.

Read the Independent article above, because although TTIP will enlarge USA's market it will allow in genetically-modified food; US agriculture overuses pesticides and growth promoters in livestock.

The aim of the EU (all parties, regardless of what they say on TV) is to bring down the standard of living for everyone.

Of course it is...

Centralised control above the heads of sovereign nations is what EU is about. Merkel did not ask the German people, she had no choice. She will probably be toppled because of it but the globalisation process, TTIP and all the rest will still steamroller on without seeking public approval.

The ultimate aim is to weaken Europe and change its way of life, to weaken independent sovereign nations and make them part of a supranational union. National identity and independence needs to be weakened.

CutTheWaffle, what you say is simply untrue.

It's not the case that most refugees "do not work for many, many years" once they've been accepted as refugees, or that they are mostly unemployable.

In fact most are desperate to get to work as soon as possible, held back by the fact the government doesn't permit them to work until it has sorted their asylum case and paperwork - that's the bit that takes time. They don't get full benefits until then, either.

I've actually known more asylum seekers working illegally while waiting to be processed (paying NI and tax, because both are deducted by the employer) than I've known not working after getting refugee status. And the only ones I can think of who didn't work in the early years when they had young children, now own a business.

"The only reason why NHS is in a financial mess is because of the large increase in population that happened too quickly and infrastructure could not be added to. It's not to do with people living longer (forget that crap), it's not to do with patients asking for more sophisticated surgery (medical innovation happens when it happens)"

That's crap. Immigrants makes up 11.9% of the population. However the population of EU born immigrants stands at about 3 million, of this 1.4 million are from the EU8 countries. who you are referring to in terms of population growing to fast. So the country couldn't cope with an increase of 2.18%, of whom most don't actually use services.

You also discount the ageing issue as a problem when two fifths of the NHS budget is spent on care of the over 65s?

Further to this you discount the findings of the UCL study which says that immigration since 1999 has led to immigrants being net financial contributors to the economy, and that this and other studies say that the decrease in demand if immigrants were to "go home" wouldn't reduce the pressure on services as the decreased tax reciepts would be far more detrimental.

We don't know what the impact of TTIP will be because it hasn't been ratified or even finished in negotiation yet. You accuse others of being "project fear" and then post tripe like this?

"Most of those who come in as refugees or are allowed to stay for humanitarian reasons, do not work for many, many years because some of them are, frankly, unemployable. "

Refugees are not the same as economic migrants for gods sake. We would have refugees in the EU or out.

Do you know how many refugees we have living in this country? 117,234.

I had no idea about TTIP. I'll have to do some more reading (starting with the links posted here). What can we do if we can't vote against it? Remain in the EU and we agree to it anyway; leave the EU and sign up because we need to maintain trade links?

Shirking, lobby your MP to fight for as positive a deal as possible.

"TTIP" isn't a fixed thing - the details are being negotiated.

You can keep an eye on the news, or sign up for mailings from groups like 38 Degrees, who have been keeping an eye.