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Original poster

Stephen Fry should resign from being President of MIND (warning about sexual abuse)

257 replies

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 12/04/2016 17:19

According to Stephen Fry from an interviews he gave in the US

There are many great plays which contain rapes, and the word rape now is even considered a rape,” he said. “If you say: ‘you can’t watch this play, you can’t watch Titus Andronicus, or you can’t read it in a Shakespeare class, or you can’t read Macbeth because it’s got children being killed in it, it might trigger something when you were young that upset you once, because uncle touched you in a nasty place’, well I’m sorry. It’s a great shame and we’re all very sorry that your uncle touched you in that nasty place, you get some of my sympathy, but your self-pity gets none of my sympathy because self-pity is the ugliest emotion in humanity.

“Get rid of it, because no one’s going to like you if you feel sorry for yourself. The irony is we’ll feel sorry for you, if you stop feeling sorry for yourself. Just grow up.”

How can he keep his position with such an attitude. Everyone who works in MH knows of the horrendous impact that sexual abuse can have on someone's life for some it's a life long struggle.

Maybe it's his own feelings that he is fighting against, this is not the first time he has been shown to lack empathy but to have such opinions

I hope he steps down

OP posts:
whyayepetal · 13/04/2016 22:10

I think he is talking very much from his own unresolved issues

I agree, Alice

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 13/04/2016 22:34

Was that the slavery one, Blu

my phone is too shit to look it up

If it was, it's still not what he was driving at here I think

MuddhaOfSuburbia · 13/04/2016 22:37

Yy

He's talking specifically about rape and sexual abuse wrt Shakespeare here

I wondered if there were any examples of this sort of censorship, but I haven't seen anything yet

fusionconfusion · 13/04/2016 22:38

I agree about unresolved issues.

It was a very stark, angry, threatened response with a lot of shame and (given his history) tinged with self-loathing and self-criticism.

It's okay to feel deep sadness and sorriness that you have been abused as a kid - it's probably crucial, in fact.

It's not like feeling self-pity because (and this is where his tone went awry) "uncle" didn't buy you a pony or take you on his yacht this Summer. Self-pity in those kind of contexts is pretty irksome... but that's just not relatable to having deep sadness around having been sexually abused

fusionconfusion · 13/04/2016 22:43

This covers the issue in relation to trauma and exposure well enough, I think: www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/11106670/Trigger-warnings-more-harm-than-good.html

LarryStylison · 13/04/2016 23:07

Horrible bitter old man

fusionconfusion · 13/04/2016 23:24

And this is why talking about child sexual abuse in this way - apology or not - should have us at least asking if this damages his credibility as president of MIND:
www.madinamerica.com/2016/04/heal-for-life/

MajesticWhine · 13/04/2016 23:32

Thanks for posting that fusion, great article.

MajesticWhine · 13/04/2016 23:34

I meant the telegraph one not the other

DioneTheDiabolist · 14/04/2016 00:34

I read the article that Fusion linked. It said that the avoidance of trauma is not beneficial for sufferers. But a TW is not censorship, nor is it avoidance, it is a heads up.

nooka · 14/04/2016 02:14

I think if you read the interview and you read the apology then the apology seems kind of OK. But if you watch the interview you can see that it really isn't a matter of interpretation. He didn't 'appear' to belittle or fail to get across what he was trying to say. I thin it came across loud and clear. He was very clear that he consider that some people who have been abused deserve no pity or allowances, they should just 'grow up' and get over it. Delivered with some venom I thought. Not really a mistake in delivery, it looked very much like an expression of his true feelings.

Rinoachicken · 14/04/2016 07:26

I agree nooka

Blu · 14/04/2016 08:21

Mhudda: yes it was. Sorry, I was answering the question in a general sense rather than in particular to SF.

Narp · 14/04/2016 08:25

I think he may have a point about censorship.

But the way he speaks about mental health - which is actually irrelevant to the point he is making, is troubling.

fusionconfusion · 14/04/2016 08:59

The difficulty is that triggers are more often than not idiosyncratic - so you are as likely to be triggered by something incredibly random as by reading about the details of a rape etc.

In CBT and similar therapies, the trigger warning buys into the idea that it will be beneficial to avoid certain words/narratives- that it is the right thing to do. This is potentially problematic on two levels: 1) it suggests that words are the same as the things they point to, and that reading about a rape really is a threat to your well-being, that the physical sensations, thoughts and feelings it provokes are "dangerous" and to be avoided and 2) that probably reduces incidental exposure that enables you, over time, to realise that reading about a rape ISN'T a threat to your well-being etc etc.

I think it's all quite tricky in that I know, when all is said in done, that as it said in the second article the impact of sexual trauma on someone's mental health is dose-dependent - so though I do think we need to take a lot of care in making trigger warnings the norm because they probably trap women in trauma more than free them from it, I am also acutely aware of the pain of having to face it.

I also know that there are people whose trauma will have been so much more severe than mine that it seems cruel to expect people to face it.. but having listened to women from Sierra Leone who were tortured and gang-raped and watched their children tortured, gang-raped and killed talk about the importance of accepting the pain and walking towards it as a way of freeing yourself from it, I just... don't know that it's really a positive thing to slap trigger warnings all over everything. I think it can make the world even smaller and yet seem a lot more threatening for people who have suffered.

Original poster
EnthusiasmDisturbed · 14/04/2016 09:44

It's good that he has made an apology

It is rather I am sorry what I was trying to say rather than I am sorry what I said was wrong

I doubt this will be the last of SF's controversial opinions regardless of the good work he has done in raising awareness for MH he is the president of MIND and people will take on board what he says and at times he public persona may clash with that and undo some of the good work he has done

OP posts:
Eustace2016 · 14/04/2016 09:46

It is hard for those of us who are stoic and robust and are very matter of fact to understand others who are different so I suspect Stephen Fry is just in the former category not the latter.

However the important issue is to resist censorship.

I always enjoyed reading the old fairy stories and singing the old nursery rhymes to the children even if night after night it was the same story again and again because they have those complex fascinating themes of murder, eating children and the like. It would be a huge pity if we had to start only reading in schools and at home anodyne dull stuff about teddy bears and we certainly should not censor Shakespeare otherwise we are as bad as muslim religious schools or indeed some US Christian materials with pages of books ripped out to ensure children don't learn about homosexuality, women's rights, the naked body and all the rest.

In general if we can try to be kind to everyone that works but wholesale censorhip is wrong. I will fight to the death to ensure mumsnetters can express beliefs I hate - such as mothers shouldn't work or so tha Muslims can argue women are inferior to men or so that people can deny the holocaust. I want us to live in a UK which has huge press freedom and I hope mumsnetters realise that we should never take our freedom of speech for granted.

Kidnapped · 14/04/2016 12:33

Stoic and robust are not words I'd use to describe Stephen Fry.

The words he used in the TV interview seemed to me like words he had heard from someone else in the past (perhaps about him and perhaps not). And he seems to have taken this message to heart. And perhaps this has an adverse effect on his own mental health over the years.

I wonder if he has had any insight into why he can't seem to just "grow up" regarding his own mental health issues. I don't intend that to be inflammatory at all - it just seems that he feels it is okay to talk (a lot) about his struggle in the public domain, and at the same time seeking to silence others from talking about theirs.

fusionconfusion · 14/04/2016 13:12

That is very true Kidnapped. There is that shame in it... and lack of perspective shifting. But I suppose that is common at certain points for a lot of us with mental health struggles, from time to time.

Itsmine · 14/04/2016 13:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OurBlanche · 14/04/2016 14:12

He was very clear that he consider that some people who have been abused deserve no pity or allowances, they should just 'grow up' and get over it. Delivered with some venom I thought. Not really a mistake in delivery, it looked very much like an expression of his true feelings.

You missed a bit.... some people who have been abused and then forever wallow in self pity, use it as a weapon against the world (and themselves usually) should Get rid of it, because no one’s going to like you if you feel sorry for yourself. The irony is we’ll feel sorry for you, if you stop feeling sorry for yourself.

He plainly was not taking about all individuals who have ever been abused. He was talking, from his own experiences of wallowing in self pity, about people who do the same, use their experiences as a launchpad for censorship, the stopping of a thing rather than the understanding of a thing hence his examples from the arts... he didn't say they had been stopped but gave them as examples of art that looks closely at the vey worst ofhuman behaviour and is asking if they would be banned because someone decided that they were 'triggering' - my use, not his!

OurBlanche · 14/04/2016 14:13

Ooops! too soon...

Yes he was clumsy, very, but it sounds as though he was trying to say a very complex, deeply personal/heartfelt thought... and failing to be at all clear.

Kidnapped · 14/04/2016 14:20

But HAVE survivors of childhood sexual abuse been seeking to censor plays?

Has that actually happened?

OurBlanche · 14/04/2016 14:32

Sort of yes... but that wasn't his direct point, it was where he lost his thread and was wrong!

Itinerary · 14/04/2016 14:42

Even "stoic and robust" people can lose those qualities if they're suffering from mental illness or dealing with a difficult past. Mental illness, PTSD etc. are not signs of weakness.

I agree with free speech and freedom of artistic expression. But I've never heard of abuse survivors or people with mental health problems trying to censor plays. And of course free speech works both ways. Yes, the artist is free to put forward a piece of work. But someone who finds a piece of theatre/writing difficult, or feels it portrays particular issues inaccurately or flippantly, should also be able to enjoy their freedom of speech in saying so.