Stephen Fry should resign from being President of MIND (warning about sexual abuse)

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

According to Stephen Fry from an interviews he gave in the US

There are many great plays which contain rapes, and the word rape now is even considered a rape,” he said. “If you say: ‘you can’t watch this play, you can’t watch Titus Andronicus, or you can’t read it in a Shakespeare class, or you can’t read Macbeth because it’s got children being killed in it, it might trigger something when you were young that upset you once, because uncle touched you in a nasty place’, well I’m sorry. It’s a great shame and we’re all very sorry that your uncle touched you in that nasty place, you get some of my sympathy, but your self-pity gets none of my sympathy because self-pity is the ugliest emotion in humanity.

“Get rid of it, because no one’s going to like you if you feel sorry for yourself. The irony is we’ll feel sorry for you, if you stop feeling sorry for yourself. Just grow up.”

How can he keep his position with such an attitude. Everyone who works in MH knows of the horrendous impact that sexual abuse can have on someone's life for some it's a life long struggle.

Maybe it's his own feelings that he is fighting against, this is not the first time he has been shown to lack empathy but to have such opinions

I hope he steps down

[oliviaclottedcream]

I took his comments to be him articulating his own struggle with self pity. He's already apologised for causing offence anyway..Perhaps he was a little clunkier than usual but hats off to him for pointing out the "infantilism of society" As he deftly put it. He was talking about the social and cultural censorship towards exploring themes such as rape and infanticide seen in Shakespeare classics including Macbeth and Titus Andronicus. I couldn't agree or support his views more!!!

As for that odious, smug, self regarding, toss-pot Piers Morgan remarking that Fry "doesn't sound like he used to sound"? Bloody good thing too IMO...Maybe he's going to start doing more thought provoking and important work than the usual light weight frivolity we're used to getting from him.

[Kidnapped]

I genuinely don't intend to be crass here. Do some types of mental illness display themselves in ways that appear to be self-absorbed or self-pitying behaviour to an outsider?

So if Stephen Fry for example says that he's really upset that a few people slagged him off on Twitter, and it isn't fair, etc (here's his farewell speech), then could could you attribute at least some of that self-pitying behaviour to his mental illness? Or is it just pure attention-seeking twattery on his part, with nothing to do with his mental illness?

Hard to know, I suppose. And different from person to person.

[PiperChapstick]

I'm a survivor of sexual abuse and I agree with most of what he says although he didn't word it very well.

Although I did when I heard it coming from him, as I think he's the king of self pity, no?

[FelicityFunknickle]

Sorry onedaftmonkey

[Onedaftmonkey]

As a survivor of rape I think he is the biggest wanker alive. People like him need to be made as pathetic as the pricks who do these acts. I hope he suffers through his mental illness as I have suffered these last 27 years. Celebrities should not have gobs like the Blackwell tunnel. I hope you never sleep another full nights rest in your life. Asshole

[fusionconfusion]

Dione I simply misphrased this (think accidentally deleted part of the sentence) as the whole of my post was about how avoidance maintains difficulty.. The sentence should read the trigger warning IS seen as maintaining because it buys into the idea that yadda yadds.

Trigger warnings reduce natural exposure, maintain hyper vigilance and encourage avoidance. So there is a bit of harm there, yes.

[applecatchers36]

Interesting radio programme that SF might benefit from listening to!

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b070dksr

[BillSykesDog]

It's virtually zero cost and would be very useful for some people, plus it stops plays being blackballed altogether.

[BillSykesDog]

I think though if we give moody stropping teenage girls who like to make trouble everywhere (and boys too for that matter) rights to complain to teachers right left and centre just because they like causing a fuss, about the Shakespeare play set for that term that is going a bit too far.

When on earth has this happened? Let alone 'left right and centre'? I assume that 'moody stropping teenage girls' is what you view victims of abuse to be?

What's the point of going to the theatre if you have to read the plot of every play beforehand? That rather defeats the point of going to the theatre altogether, as I said the blurb doesn't always cover it and even 'reading around' might not cover it as different productions have different content. For example a 2011 production of William Tell at the Royal Opera House had a rape scene it doesn't normally have. And now as a result a lot of opera does actually have warnings if necessary, including at the ROH.

[Eustace2016]

I don't think we need warnings for most plays and opera as people should read the subject in advance. Lots of people going to the opera will read a summary of the plot in advance anyway and if it's material they don't like or a music period they don't like or whatever they won't go. Plays have often had warnings where they are extreme - wasn't there a naked one in the 70s called Hair or something and I am sure before people went they were told those acting were naked.

I think though if we give moody stropping teenage girls who like to make trouble everywhere (and boys too for that matter) rights to complain to teachers right left and centre just because they like causing a fuss, about the Shakespeare play set for that term that is going a bit too far. If they want their parents to write in to the school and pay to sit the exam doing other texts out of school then they should have to arrange that themselves.

Quite a good article on triggers and mentioning plays is here lilithsside.wordpress.com/2014/05/31/the-playwrights-trigger-thoughts-on-warnings-in-the-theater/

[howcanikeepdoingthis]

Over the last 20 years there is a growing body of evidence relating trauma to psychosis.

To be oppressed in this way by someone who identifies as a peer is particularly nasty.

He is a cunt.

[Narp]

Watching that interview again, it seems to me that his vehemence seems to bean expression of his own self-disgust, projected outwards.

[didyouwritethe]

MIND as an organisation has a VERY dodgy record on child sex abuse.

Going back the to 1970s.

[Itinerary]

Reactionary yes, but is 58 really "old"?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Have survivors of child sexual abuse been seeking to censor plays?

That is something I have been asking throughout this thread and have not yet been given any examples. That's what makes SF's comments ridiculous and leads me to question why he brought CSA survivors into the conversation at all.

When I listened to his comments, it sounded like this was something that was not said off the cuff. It sounded like something he has said in private and his "audience" have sycophantically agreed with, so he put it in a public interview.

I used to love him. He came across as an intelligent critical thinker. However I think he is now, as MrsdeVere said "a reactionary old man". He no longer thinks critically or challenges his beliefs. Instead it appears that his thought process is: I have had a thought/heard something. I think it's brilliant. I'm clever, so because I agree with it, it must be true. It's true.

It happens to many people of a "certain age".

[BillSykesDog]

It infantilises survivors.

[BillSykesDog]

I haven't heard anything about actual survivors trying to censor anything. What I have heard about is the usual student based moral police safe spaces crowd who often seem to speak on behalf of survivors without making any particular effort to find out what the actual survivors want. And always with the most extreme reaction - banning plays rather than placing warnings etc.

I find that really frustrating. After all, survivors who are going to see plays are mostly adult and capable of making their own choices when given adequate information and don't need blanket impositions dictating to them any more than anyone else does.

[MrsHathaway]

Exactly, Felicity. You can't predict that someone will be triggered by a particular music track, or shower gel smell, and those are the unpredictable triggers survivors deal with frequently.

Putting a TW on predictable and widespread triggers such as explicit depictions of sexual assault means that those still working on their trauma response can limit their exposure to triggers - not to zero, obviously, but to hopefully manageable levels.

[FelicityFunknickle]

Also, whilst avoiding any and all triggers might not neccessarily be helpful in long term healing, it doesn't neccessarily follow that trigger warnings should not exist.
Firstly, writers/ performers of fiction have no business assuming the position of therapist. And secondly, when exposure (to a trigger) is recommended then it is usually best managed in a controlled way; "flooding" is not considered particularly helpful.

[FelicityFunknickle]

T1mum agree. Good point.

[Rosebud05]

Anything can trigger mental distress, that is true.

Although it's well known that rape, sexual assault, suicide and violence are triggering to many people who are living with the consequences.

I don't understand the reasons for not warning people who are thinking of going to a show of potentially triggering elements of the show. Just as theatres do about strobe lighting, they have signs about steep stairs etc to minimise accidents.

Why not treat mental health the same way?

[MajesticWhine]

The problem is, anything could trigger mental distress. I am quite sensitive about a few odd things which I won't go into. They are very ordinary everyday things that other people would never imagine causing distress. It relates to some mistakes I have made in my life, so for me it's triggering. Avoidance and being hyper vigilant about such things is the worst way to tackle it.

[t1mum]

"It is hard for those of us who are stoic and robust and are very matter of fact to understand others who are different so I suspect Stephen Fry is just in the former category not the latter."

Stoic and robust are two of the most frequent words people use to describe me, yet I have thrown a book in the bin because of its description of rape. I don't think "strength of character" and "being triggered by descriptions of sexual violence" are mutually incompatible.

[Rosebud05]

I haven't noticed any survivors seeking to censor particular play either, Bill.

I do think that content known to be a trigger - rape, violence etc should be on the 'blurb' as it is with films.

If a show has strobe lighting, theatres ensure that people are informed so that people with physical health problems like epilepsy can avoid/take due precautions, so I see no reason that the same thing can't happen to content that can trigger mental distress.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

In CBT and similar therapies the trigger warning buys into the idea that it will be beneficial to avoid certain words/naratives. That it is the right thing to do.

This is incorrect. CBT and similar teach the client how to manage the physical symptoms and challenge negative automatic thoughts triggered. Avoidance is definitely not recommended.