To be mad at FIL for feeding my daughter meat?

[Fruitypebbles]

Hi, just joined the site to ask this.

We're vegans, and my daughter has been raised and weaned vegan. She's 5 and happily eats anything put in front of her. She's very healthy, not lacking in any vitamins or nutrients at all and is beautiful, happy and refuses to eat meat usually because she knows in child friendly terms why we are vegans.

Despite her health being perfectly fine (she rarely ever gets ill, let alone any deficiencies in iron and protein - there's plenty of protein in plants!) my FIL thinks we're evil. We've given him all the information, shown him exactly how much she gets in a normal day and he can see how healthy she is. He fed her a meat casserole, she obviously couldn't recognise the meat in the stew because we use meat subs occasionally. She was very, very sick after this as her body can't digest meat after never eating it. Why can't he just respect our choices to not eat animal products? AIBU?

Ok, fair enough, it's a consistent approach. Would you also tell a Muslim or a Jewish family to let their children eat pork?

Regardless of what the 'forbidden' food was that he fed your daughter, he blatantly went against your wishes as well as deliberately deceiving her, and that is unacceptable.

I'd be furious and would read him the riot act and not let him be alone with her again.

No not if they eat meat anyway, they're getting all the sufficient proteins, iron, zinc, calcium, and vitamin B-12 that children, especially need. Pork isn't necessary.

Don't get me wrong here - I have no problem with vegetarianism whatsoever I think it's a healthy, ethical, admirable and responsible way to live. It takes a lot of preparing though and that's what puts me off. I just don't have the time. I'm very aware that I eat too much meat and I do try to keep my and my children's red meat consumption to just once a week . Veganism though for children? That's a different matter for me. Sorry to repeat myself, but I think it defies common sense.

I think it requires a lot of careful thought to put together a varied and balanced vegan diet for children. I don't think it defies common sense though, and I would assume that parents who are vegan would be best placed to devise such a diet for their children.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to do a vegetarian diet, at least I don't find it to be particularly tricky. Perhaps to begin with, if you aren't used to it. I was vegetarian for many many years before having children, so it isn't even something I spend much time thinking about.

I'm confused though, if you think a vegetarian diet is fine, why you would advise a Hindu family, who were raising their children as vegetarians, to eat meat? It's very easy to get sufficient proteins, iron, zinc, calcium, and vitamin B-12 from a vegetarian diet.

Nothing wrong with a vegan diet for children. But thats not the issue anyway. Gf knew your dd was vegan yet he made his own choice regardless of your parenting decisions. Which is pretty damn disrespectful. I'm sure the naysayers here wouldn't like a parenting decision they consider to be important to be over ridden by someone who thinks they know better.
Fwiw my dc were brought up veggie. One of the teachers gave him chicken one day. Later on he had funny tummy and his poo smelt like something had died!!!! Ds's speech wasn't very good, when when I commented on it to my dd, who was in the same class, she told me he had been given chicken. Which was confirmed with the teacher the next day. I was pretty annoyed with that, although accept it was probably an accident, even though the teacher didn't fess up to it right away.

For me, an adult? Yes. Veg diet or a vegan one for growing children? No ! A bit of everything, a balanced diet is what they need.

DD has been veggie all her life (6). She's as a flea, one of the tallest, slim, very strong and active, doing well at school. So clearly a veggie diet isn't doing her any harm. She has a very balanced diet, it just doesn't contain meat or fish.

OP I would be horrified, angry and completely am in your corner and I'm neither vegetarian but vegan. Can I ask, though, based on your ethical principles (which you articulated beautifully without the hysteria I have seen when explaining vegan food choices) what your feelings would be on your consumption of eggs from hens that you keep and care for? I get your principles regarding industry-produced animal products but as hens lay eggs naturally, would you consider this to be acceptable to consume them, knowing that they weren't produced via exploitative methods?
Sorry if slightly off topic - I'm just interested to know your views as it has always been a grey area for me!

But, Olivia, a vegetarian diet is a complete balanced diet. It's not even hard to put together. It does cover a "bit of everything" - all food groups and all vits/minerals etc. My DS is not far off 4 yrs old, and is very tall for his age, sturdy, strong, and rarely unwell. He had a great appetite and eats a wide range of fruit, veg, pulses etc. He's only one example of course, but I find it hard to look at how healthy he is and think that his diet is lacking somehow.

I agree that a vegan diet is a bit more tricky, but that's probably because I'm not a long-standing vegan. It would probably be a lot easier for someone who has been a vegan for a good while.

fascicle yes some people don't have the ability to metabolise alcohol, often prevalent in people from the Far East although I'm not! I can't - and have never been able to. Some other family members are the same.

it is thought to be from previous generations not drinking enough alcohol and purifying their water by boiling instead.

fascicle yes some people don't have the ability to metabolise alcohol

And a lot of people worldwide have an issue with processing lactose. But the scenario I was talking about was along the lines of teenagers/young people and alcohol. Drinking too much to the point of vomiting is an extremely common experience, especially for people who might be newish drinkers. My point is that it wouldn't be interpreted in the same way that e.g. you and cleaty are interpreting meat eating experiences for longterm abstainers.

When he was little ds2 had quite a severe milk intolerance and subsequently had to be dairy free until he outgrew it at 18 months.

When we were weaning I was really taken aback when we (through necessity to avoid a reaction) religiously checked products for milk ingredients at how many derivatives of milk are used in foods and other products. When the law changed in 2014 it was much easier to see it but it popped up everywhere! I would imagine the dairy aspect of veganism would be more challenging than avoiding meat and fish - and the challenge that we had of ensuring good calcium intake. We definitely found it tricky

We ended up using quite a number of vegan products and cooking lots of vegan foods/meals as I'm a bit of a fake veggie anyway (only eat meat very rarely) and we still eat many meals now. The only thing I really disliked was the vegan cheese but generally once we got in the swing of it it was fine.

Modern domestic chickens lay far more often than their wild counterparts. They would naturally sit and hatch the eggs, not just keep laying.

I personally eat eggs, usually those from local hens in a neighbour's garden. I don't kid myself this is vegan. It might be considered ethical, but vegan? No.

gingergenie I asked this recently on another thread as I have a friend coming to stay for a month. She is vegan, and we have hens. The location we live in means that vegan alternatives are almost impossible to get hold. The consensus was that it depends on the vegan. She said she will eat our eggs. I don't think this makes her less of vegan or someone that cannot call herself a vegan. She is adapting her eating choices to her environment. In London, where she spends 99.99% of her life, she is a vegan. On our farm in South America she is eating off the land and that actually suits her personally and ethically.

DH and I are vegetarian, and raising our children as such.

It amazes me that some people still think that meat/poultry/fish are essential for a balanced diet. (I think some of them are willfully ignorant, as they don't want to accept their way isn't the only way).

A balanced diet has to contain protein, of which meat etc are obviously sources, but there are plenty of vegetarian and vegan sources of protein too.

OP - YADNBU. I would be furious if anyone fed my children meat, and if someone did so, they wouldn't be allowed to look after them again.

You've married an arsehole's son. If you look after a veggie's/vegan's child you feed that child accordingly. Even your own GC, even if you think the parents are evil or loonies or both. DW and I are omnivores but when my (adult) veggie niece visits we do a veggie meal. It's one thing to regard meat or fish as essential, and I'm not getting into that, it's another to believe that they are essential every day which they are not.

Tell him that it must not happen again. Don't ask him, tell him.

Sometimes though compromise is a good thing. I wouldn't not let him see her or have a relationship with her because he hasn't followed your wishes. If it's a one off and not illegal I think you daughter would lose out by cutting him out if your life. That would be a worse wrong.

Gabilan I'm pretty sure eggs only hatch if they're fertilised. If there is no rooster, no eggs can be fertilised. I know of several people with hen's and they have a laying season, which is in no way influenced by any kind of unethical interference (ie as is the case with milk production). Often, hens die if they try to hatch unfertilised eggs, by going 'broody', which is why you remove the eggs. Laying, whilst perhaps more frequent is still a natural part of a hen's physiology.

Ginger, the issue isn't whether or not the eggs would hatch. Chickens have been bred specifically to lay more frequently than they do in the wild. Arguably that's exploitative. They're then kept and the eggs are removed so they keep laying. Yes, laying eggs is what they do. The vegan argument against this, as I understand it, is that keeping them repeatedly laying and not just leaving them to live naturally is exploitative.

olivers no I don't know anybody that checks for those things. That's ridiculous. And neurotic

Would rather be ridiculous and neurotic than not checking what food companies slip in to their recipes

Yes because they're trying to poison you.

Gabi yes I get that, but say you rescued chickens, lived and looked after them and allowed them freedom to roam, scratch etc (which several family member have done) is that still exploitative? Not bring a GF - genuinely trying to work out if, in those circs, eating eggs would be considered acceptable. I guess it all depends?

Ginger, totally acceptable to my mind. The arguments against it are pretty weak. The hens aren't being exploited, I know from experience that they don't usually just stop laying if you don't gather the eggs. And you're right, it can be dangerous for them if they do.

To argue that it's exploitative because humans have bred them purposefully to lay more makes as much sense as arguing that my cocker spaniel is being exploited because she doesn't roam the hills in a pack while hunting deer.

keeping sheep as pets is far worse!

I meant from a moral point of view.

You wont eat the meat or wear the wool that those animals are bred for, but you will keep them in an alien (to them) environment because they are cute? Yes that is worse. Sheep are use to living in flocks on wild land, not a couple of them in someones back garden. But hey, as long as you dont eat them then thats ok, right?

Wrong.

Gabilan, most of the vegetables and fruit we eat today were purposefully modified by generations to make the best out of them, i.e. their characteristics were exploited and they were planted often at the expense of other plants.
Currently, as the demand for in-fashion "superplants" grows (quinoa is soooooo yesterday), the exploitation of the land grows, mostly conveniently out of sight of vegans and vegetarians who don't want to eat animal produce due to exploitation but lack similar reservations when it comes to plants ( and I'm not even talking about the high food mileage of many favourite vegan staples).