AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

[SpringingIntoAction]

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron won an agreement that the UK could opt of ever closer union agreements in future, btw

You think

[SpringingIntoAction]

Buttered

Play the issue - not the poster.

[PausingFlatly]

The full 15 Jan 2015 Parliamentary debate on TTIP can be found here:
'That this House believes that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and any associated investor-state dispute settlement provisions should be subject to scrutiny in the European Parliament and the UK Parliament.'

[butteredmuffin]

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels

"That's interesting, as I've been abused by many Brexiters here and on other threads!"

I thought I'd seen some real nastiness in the Scottish referendum campaign, but that was nothing compared to what I've seen so far from the Brexit camp.

A complete stranger called me a "pro EU lickspittle" earlier. He then said that the government was breaking the law by spending taxpayers' money on sending out leaflets in support of the remain side, that Ted Heath committed treason by allowing us to join the EU in the first place, and that when we vote to leave, anyone working in the civil service who is pro EU will be fired and replaced with "honest employees".

I don't think he understands how employment law works. Or constitutional law. Or democracy. Hey ho.

[lurked101]

Well as much as I hate to say it I'd trust him more than I trust your fanciful conjecture.

[PausingFlatly]

Erm, Springing, are you actually interested in TTIP?

Or did it just look like it might be useful for your Brexit views?

[lurked101]

I think Lord Owen made it about Brexit really..

[SpringingIntoAction]

Hover

Calling someone 'an arse' and accusing them of lying is actually very discourteous.

I am trying to have a civilised argument on here.

I am under no obligation to hide post links.

I can post what I choose to post.

I can interpret things in the way I chose to interpret things.

There is no 'right way' or 'wrong way'.

There are 'my views' and there are 'opposing views'.

If you cannot accept that with abusing me then I shall leave the discussion.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Erm, Springing, are you actually interested in TTIP?

Yes, I am

It's one of the reasons why I wish to leave the EU.

[butteredmuffin]

So we can sign up to something much worse straight away instead?

That makes perfect sense.

[SpringingIntoAction]

^So we can sign up to something much worse straight away instead?

That makes perfect sense^

Unfounded conjecture

[PausingFlatly]

Can you explain to me how leaving the EU will protect the UK from making a unilateral deal with the US that will actually have more of the provisions you're concerned about?

Given the current (and recent) UK government is extremely pro those provisions?

I'm asking this in all seriousness.

Answers to questions like this will decide how I vote on Brexit.

[butteredmuffin]

No, it's based on the stated intentions of the people who are in power right now.

Voting for Brexit because you're concerned about TTIP would be a rational choice if Jeremy Corbyn were in power. But even Jeremy Corbyn, who is strongly opposed to TTIP (and clearly privately opposed to the EU) is recommending that we remain in the EU and challenge TTIP, rather than leaving the EU and letting the Tories sign up to a damaging free trade agreement with the USA which would be effectively irreversible by future administrations.

[lurked101]

But an analysis of the current TTIP deal, and current non EU states that have large balances of trade with the EU suggest that both a trade deal with the US and the EU would be less favourable.

What is your idea based on?

[butteredmuffin]

PausingFlatly

The USA has admitted that the reason TTIP is taking so long to negotiate is because they have to engage in actual negotiations with the EU. Normally they just send small countries their terms and conditions and tell them to sign.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Can you explain to me how leaving the EU will protect the UK from making a unilateral deal with the US that will actually have more of the provisions you're concerned about?

Given the current (and recent) UK government is extremely pro those provisions?

I'm asking this in all seriousness.

Answers to questions like this will decide how I vote on Brexit

If the UK were to vote for a Brexit Cameron could not survive as PM. It would be impossible for him to recommend a certain path to the Uk, only for them to reject it in the referendum. His credibility would be totally shot.

Cameron would therefore have to step down.

It is highly unlikely that the Tories would then replace the pro-EU Cameron with an equally as pro-EU replacement, given the public has rejected that stance.

The replacement PM would therefore almost certainly be one of the Tory MPS who are opposing Cameron's current stance.

That (replacement) Tory PM and his new Eurosceptic cabinet would then have a mandate to negotiate a Brexit. The UK would therefore be unable to be included in the existing TTIP agreement between the US and the EU as the UK would be a member of neither.

The fallout from the Brexit would would keep the Government fully occupied for the remainder of its current term in office. It would have no time available to it to negotiate a 'new' Uk/US 'TTIP.

As TTIP would be such a damaging assault on the UK's public services, including the NHS it would be a major campaigning point at a subsequent general election in 2020.

That would allow Labour /Liberals / Tories, whatever party to state quite clearly that if you vote for them they will not sign up to a new TTIP.

Now, I did that without reference to any links, any research etc, because it is my own vision of how I see things could pan out.

I do not believe that TTIP is an inescapable evil. It will take decades for the US to sign up the whole world to TTIP as people on here suggest it wants to. I don't believe it will ever succeed in doing so.

What I am saying is that you can vote REMAIN, accept the inevitable TTIP and the possible devastating effect on the NHS or, you can at least attempt to escape it by voting to Leave.

[SpringingIntoAction]

Voting for Brexit because you're concerned about TTIP would be a rational choice if Jeremy Corbyn were in power.

What I am saying is, take a leaf out of the EU book, and kick the can down the road by buying time and making TTIP the major issue at the 2020 election.

You may find that Jeremy Corbyn or whoever was in power would feel very differently about TTIP/the EU following a Brexit vote.

[butteredmuffin]

Springing, you have completely missed the salient point.

All the pro-Brexit politicians are champing at the bit to get out of the EU so we can negotiate our own free trade agreements with other countries.

If we leave the EU, of course we will not be included in TTIP. The point is that we would want to negotiate our own free trade agreement with the USA as a matter of priority. Except that there wouldn't really be any negotiating, because they would hold the cards. So in all likelihood we would be signing up to whatever terms the USA wanted to impose, which would certainly be worse for us (and better for the USA) than what is currently proposed under TTIP.

Same with China.

[butteredmuffin]

"What I am saying is, take a leaf out of the EU book, and kick the can down the road by buying time and making TTIP the major issue at the 2020 election.

You may find that Jeremy Corbyn or whoever was in power would feel very differently about TTIP/the EU following a Brexit vote."

Sorry Springing, but this is pure fantasy. The deal would be done long before the 2020 election.

[SpringingIntoAction]

IThe USA has admitted that the reason TTIP is taking so long to negotiate is because they have to engage in actual negotiations with the EU. Normally they just send small countries their terms and conditions and tell them to sign.

I am constantly told, as the link below says, that the EU is the biggest player in world trade.

[[http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/index_en.htm[[

On that basis, why is the EU allowing the US to call the shots? If TTIP will be damaging to one of its constituent member countries, why is the EU permitting the US to damage that country?

[butteredmuffin]

Springing, the EU is not allowing the US to call the shots. That is why it is taking so long.

[lurked101]

"Now, I did that without reference to any links, any research etc, because it is my own vision of how I see things could pan out."

You might as well say the moon is made of cheese.

[SpringingIntoAction]

It's not as black and white as you're painting it Buttered.

We already have the World Trade Organisation framework under which we could continue to trade with the rest of the world.

Trade is a 2 way process. We have things that other countries want. They have things that we want. Trade occurs when a mutually satisfactory arrangement is agreed.

[butteredmuffin]

Trade occurs when the buyer is able and willing to buy things on terms which are acceptable to the seller. The seller sets the terms and conditions of sale. We buy more from other countries than we sell to them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35931968