To be scared about unauthorised absence?

[lakeful]

We currently live abroad but will be moving back to England in the next year, have two DCs who are in primary school. I sometimes have to do foreign travel with my job my DH (who is self-employed and very flexible) and DCs have occasionally come with me. I'm talking a period of maybe 4 weeks in total over the past two years. Where we live now, schools do encourage attendance but things are more relaxed than in England and there has not been any problem with me taking them out of school. I have been reading up on the English system and am a bit alarmed! Would I really have to get a Head Teacher's permission to take my own children abroad? Would I really be fined if I did this without their "authorisation"? And is it possible that they authorise children to miss school for reasons such as mine?

No, it wont be authorised for you to take your children out of school due to your work commitments, even if they are deep in the Amazonian rainforest or whatever and provide 'learning opportunties'.

There is a section on the school register that says 'educated offsite' so I don't know if you could get away with a cleverly worded letter to show that you are going to teach them the effects of modern day medicine on the Hubalooba tribe of deepest darkest Peru or something.

(I made up Hubalooba just in case you were wondering).

Precisely why I home ed, the insane rules and the attitudes of too many people/parents who willingly comply without question. I really feel the whole system is skewed to taking the responsibility away from the parents to be able to make decisions which are best for their families.
Family life is seriously lacking in the UK due to long work hours, both parents having to work, long school and nursery hours and expensive school holiday time holidays (even a UK holiday is a serious rip off in the school holidays.)
As other posters have said in the 80s many kids went away term time with little or no effect to their education or to their classes, maybe the way the national curriculum has been redesigned is to blame if a child being away affects the teachers and other students in such a way.
Also the many Asian kids, to which this in particular may have applied, were not put at a disadvantage educationally.
I myself had many weeks off school for trips nearly every year as i had family in many countries, even having 6 weeks off at the start of my A levels had little effect, I still attained my A levels and went to university.
The op asked a question and stated her surprise, she did not attack the policy yet certain posters have been rude and on attack mode, this im afraid op is indicative of certain people in the UK, tow the party line or else seems to be the mantra of the day.
I personally feel individuality and rules being applied with common sense is seriously lacking in the UK and you may wish to move elsewhere if possible.

It could be the equivalent of a digital "book" that the parents could leaf through at will but that would display at any given time what page it was "open" at in the classroom

How big brother would that be? I think Russia used to do something like that. At 9:30am everyone would be on p29 doing ex 5 and 6.

That's not how learning works. If it worked like that we could set kids up in massive halls with headphones and just direct them to page numbers. Teachers formatively assess and endlessly tweak plans and amend them depending on their class and also what is going on both in their world and the community. A child who has been on an exciting trip somewhere might speak to the class about their experience. A fall out over something might lead the teacher to change the plan to encompass how people get along with each other despite differences. An atrocity happening in the news might need discussion or some reassurance. Education is not all about what is on some page for that day.

Additionally it would of course be another stick to beat teachers with as some parents would be obsessed with what was being taught according to the electronic book, and phoning up and complaining if there was any deviation. Teachers should be trusted to get on with their job. People suggesting more and more ways to monitor and check what teachers are doing is one of the key reasons that 3 in 5 leave the profession within the first 5 years.

lakeful I have not read all comments but read some.

You are most definitely NOT being unreasonable to want to take your own kids out of school for something educational.

In my experience it is the kids in class (no those absent) who make a lot of trouble with antisocial and bullying behaviour, and which tie up a lot f time of the teachers and TAs. Those who go for an educational visit and return probably benefit the class.

We can't afford many trips abroad so I can't really put much energy into this at my own children's school but I am with you in spirit!

The sooner these crap laws, which seem a shameless money-making venture to me, are ended, the better!

Plus, those of us who choose to put our kids into education and not educate at home do so because a) we cannot afford to home educate, b) we do not want to home educate, c) we think school education is good.... in any order or collection of those. We also pay through taxes for the school education of our own and other people's kids.

As citizens of this country we get to voice our views on this.

If anyone starts a petition on this, please let me know, I will promote it!

The problem is that people will take their kids on a 2 week holiday to Magaluf and say it's "educational" - who is to judge what is educational and what is not.

Why is a holiday to Magaluf, a "problem"? This always gets wheeled out on these threads and it's nothing more than snobbery. The kind of people who go to Magaluf on holiday can't possibly be creating educational opportunities for their children can they?

I'm saying that if people are suggesting that an "educational experience" is valid, then who is going to decide what is ok and what is a holiday. I used Magaluf as it is so English-ified. Equally, a family could go for a holiday to Thailand and spend the time lying on a beach. They might feel that was educational. What would an "acceptable" level of education be, if trips were authorised on this basis. As you say, who's to say that the fortnight is or isn't educational.

Oh agree with that. I'm of the opinion though that spending some intensive time together as a family is reason enough and educational shouldn't necessarily come into it.

I agree in some circumstances. A family whose very ill grandmother had just died needed a week away and I authorised this. But those were the days when that could happen. They needed that time.

In the vast majority of cases parents have their children's best interests at heart and would only take time out of school if they thought this was more beneficial than being at school.

For those that don't have their children's best interests at heart, fining isn't going to fix anything.

I know several parents at my children's school who have been fined.
We have a holiday request form to fill out that states it is unlikely to be granted and you may receive a fine.
To be honest I don't have an issue with it, people know upfront it's a possibility ( likelihood) and they can choose to take the risk or not. I am considering it in May and I will factor the costs of any potential fine into our holiday cost so if I think it's worth £240 to take my DC out of school early then I will do it.
We are very lucky to have a generally good and free education system here that many people overseas would love to have so to my mind you should appreciate that. If people don't want to take advantage of our schools and work within the system ( which is admittedly not perfect) then they should make other arrangements.

The system worked perfectly well for the majority of people before they started fining people.

Those whose educational outcomes were affected through missing school are still affected through missing school. Fines cannot solve a chaotic home life.

Well government figures on this have recently been announced.

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/24/crackdown-on-term-time-holidays-appears-to-be-working-figures-show

Persistent absence, which has been in decline in recent years, also went up – the percentage of pupils persistently absent from school rose from 3.6% to 3.7%. A pupil is described as persistently absent if they have missed 15% of school in a year.

Also that children being reported as 'sick' has gone up. Wonder why that would be? Oh yes, it was because of more flu not people ringing in sick rather than risking a fine.

But antiqueroadhoe re "a family could go for a holiday to Thailand and spend the time lying on a beach. They might feel that was educational."

Why is that a problem? Time out of a year, in a foreign country, why is that a problem? Of course if it happened a lot that would not be great but a small amount of time, what is the issue. I've been to Thailand, I would imagine it is way too hot to lie on a beach all day, one would be tripping over 'culture'!

While my daughter's teacher has been absent my dd was sent to a class of children much younger than her because there was no one to teach her class, this happened more than once, and another friend's child spent some of the day clearing out a cupboard!

I agree with NickiFury that " I'm of the opinion though that spending some intensive time together as a family is reason enough and educational shouldn't necessarily come into it."

antiqueroadhoe re "I agree in some circumstances. A family whose very ill grandmother had just died needed a week away and I authorised this. But those were the days when that could happen. They needed that time."

So how have things changed so much that you could have at one time authorised that and now cannot?

PS my dd has also been outside the class in school time because one pupil was so 'difficult/disruptive/naughty' the other children had to be removed from the class room.

Hoppinggreen re "We are very lucky to have a generally good and free education system here that many people overseas would love to have so to my mind you should appreciate that. If people don't want to take advantage of our schools and work within the system ( which is admittedly not perfect) then they should make other arrangements."

Our school system is not free, it is paid for by the tax payer (which includes me and my dh and probably almost everyone reading this), unless you are referring to another school system.

The rules should be decided by the main stake holders and not some 'arbitrary' rules. I am very happy to live in this country with this school system and to be a part of it but to accept blindly that all that is done is done in the children's best interests is perhaps rather naive. Perhaps they just want to make some money out of parents! Who gets all the money from these fines, is it ploughed back into the school?

Genuine question, does anyone know, how do the fines get spent?

I'm not sure why you are confused about what I'm saying. Schools used to have more freedom in authorising. Now they don't. It used to be allowed that we could authorise some time for families if there was something like a bereavement for example. That is now not allowed.

Separately, some people feel that "educational trips" should be allowed, but who is to say what is educational and what is not? No policy is going to make everyone happy.

Of course if it happened a lot that would not be great but a small amount of time, what is the issue.

Well there's the problem. You might think a one off three-week holiday is ok. It's a short amount of time in the scheme of things. Or a week once a year is fine. Or two weeks as long as it's not during the exams. That's your point of view. Others might feel differently.

Fines are not helping with persistent absence though. Those would be the cases where a child's education is in danger of being affected.

Fines don't help with speeding cars either. It's been proven that those signs flashing "slow down" are far more effective. Doesn't change things.

antiqueroadhoe I wasn't meaning to pick on you.

I am confused why the rules have changed, it sounds like some people 'took advantage' and now everyone is punished. That sounds like a very odd reason to make a rule.

I mean people abuse the benefits system but we don't abolish it.

You say "That is now not allowed." I t seems very unfair to me that someone not connected to the children has made that blanket rule. If you were connected to the kids and had the freedom to make those choices, then at least you could take the needs of the kids into consideration.

Re "Separately, some people feel that "educational trips" should be allowed, but who is to say what is educational and what is not?" Why can't parents do this?

Re "No policy is going to make everyone happy." But it sounds like people still take their kids out of school so no one is happy presumably now either.

"Others might feel differently." I, as a parent, would not be making those choices on behalf of all kids, I would be making those choices on behalf of my own kids. I grant that someone might take advantage of the system but realistically what is to stop a parent taking a kid out and saying they are sick for a week? NOT picking on you antiqueroadhoe, it's just you seem to know about this issue.

:-( Our liberty sold for a few pounds.

tiggytape as far as my memory serves me my kids have never had time out of school aside from maybe one day a long time ago and part of a day recently for my mother's funeral.

Many people do not want to abuse a system and personally we have very little money for holidays so certainly are not going skiing and summer hols and all that.

But the principle for me is that parents should have freedom to take their children out for a wedding, funeral, holiday when the parents deem it to be suitable.

My daughter is struggling, she has dyslexia. Her school did very little to help her with this so to be honest being present at school all the time has not provided to be the magic bullet to sort this out.

We have tried a lot to help her, sought outside professional help, and reported back to school, a lot, who have on the whole ignored this, until fairly recently. At the moment her teacher is brilliant, I wish she had had this one earlier. Sadly, the school did not do very well for her and I tried hard to engage with them.

My son is not dyslexia and is at the same school (but much younger) and is having an utterly different experience at school. He is doing well and loves it.

Just being there is not the be all and end all. It's about a whole bunch of other stuff.

So, let me get this straight - other families (who perhaps have never been abroad before, and who maybe cannot afford school holiday prices, and maybe who do ordinary sorts of jobs, you know, the sort that keep society going) having a week all-inclusive in Mallorca is not OK, but you taking your children abroad to far-flung, developing countries is fine because it's to do with the charitable, voluntary sector. I have some sympathy with your overall argument as it happens, but I hate that kind of snobbery.

You need to pay for a private school.

I am confused why the rules have changed, it sounds like some people 'took advantage' and now everyone is punished. That sounds like a very odd reason to make a rule.

The rule didn't change. Guidance was issued to HT and LAs on how to interpret the rule.

Based, in part, on the feedback from HTs who were increasingly in the firing line from parents when they used their discretion and refused to authorise absence for those DCs who they believed would be adversely affected by not being there - because they had been absent a lot, or other reasons.

The inspection framework was changed to reflect the new interpretation of the law - schools are now judged on their attendance levels and if progress is below average, attendance can be identified as an area for school improvement.