To be scared about unauthorised absence?

[lakeful]

We currently live abroad but will be moving back to England in the next year, have two DCs who are in primary school. I sometimes have to do foreign travel with my job my DH (who is self-employed and very flexible) and DCs have occasionally come with me. I'm talking a period of maybe 4 weeks in total over the past two years. Where we live now, schools do encourage attendance but things are more relaxed than in England and there has not been any problem with me taking them out of school. I have been reading up on the English system and am a bit alarmed! Would I really have to get a Head Teacher's permission to take my own children abroad? Would I really be fined if I did this without their "authorisation"? And is it possible that they authorise children to miss school for reasons such as mine?

If it were fair, fines should be applied for the same circumstances whichever school system. The law is the same for both.

Tiggy, you're saying that parents at private schools don't get fined for taking their children out of school, pretty, you're saying they do. Which is it? I'm confused (not difficult I'll admit).

There are two different laws; one applies only to maintained schools and relates to the authorisation of absence by those maintained schools.
Local authorities have the power to issue Fixed Penalty Notices to parents if a DC does not regularly attend maintained school at which they are registered. Can delegate that responsibility to HTs. Consider that FPN in the same way, for instance, as a private school could withdraw a partial bursary, or remove a discount on fees, if a DC fails to attend regularly.
Because the Government provides the education in maintained schools , it has to set the "rules" under which that state education is provided, just as private school boards set the rules for their HTs to follow. The only difference is that for maintained schools the rules are set out in legislation.

The other legislation is a law requiring parents to ensure that their DCs regularly attend education. This can lead to fines (not FPNs) and/or prosecution. That law applies to all DCs.

Pretty, you said this earlier:

However, in both cases, private schools do have a legal obligation to send registers of attendance to the Local Authority, who do involve EWOs and issue fines to parents whose DCs don't attend school regularly.

Are you now saying that's not true?

Not at all - Fixed Penalty Notices for non-attendance at maintained schools are only one of the types of fine that an LA (or the police) can issue.

They can also fine a parent, or issue an order, if a parent fails to ensure their DC attends a private school at which they are enrolled. The private school must provide the LA with details of pupils who do not attend, and ensure a register is kept, in line with legislation.

comingintomyown "If you put your child in a state school then those rules will apply. It's amazing how many people think they should be able to do what they like and rules shouldn't apply to them when it doesn't suit them and then try and justify it under of the banner of travel being educational ." BUT WE as parents are stake holders in our children's education just as much as the people who are employed to deliver that education! And as tax payers we fund it! Of course we should have views about how things are run. We don;t get a say in making up the rules for the system we pay for which educates our children and even if I were to home educate or put my kids into private school, which I cannot afford I would still need to pay taxes to fund state education so I should still get a say!

State schools are therefore run for our kids and paid for by us, why should only a limited number of people get to say how they are run. I am not talking about a free for all. I am talking about a flexible system.

And if we are listing things teachers hate I would say Ofsted was higher on the list than term time holidays.

mumoseven, re "They use the money from fines to run the system which fines you!" So hard strapped parents who perhaps can't afford a good holiday any other way end up funding the system that fines them, what a great use of people's cash!

tiggytape my kids attended the funeral and wake (older child) and wake (younger child) of my Mum recently, it did not occur to me they would not be allowed to but what woudl have happened if the funeral was in Scotland or even overseas. We might have wanted to see family and friends we rarely got to see, would that be deemed appropriate?

tiggytape I know you do not make up the rules!

I have only read the first page so apologies if this has been suggested: OP, you can always deregister your kids from school before the trip saying you have decided to home educate. On return you just register them again. Unless it's a posh oversubscribed grammar/private, they will get their places back. If it's a private school, you won't have a big problem taking them in the first place.

State schools are therefore run for our kids and paid for by us, why should only a limited number of people get to say how they are run. I am not talking about a free for all. I am talking about a flexible system.

Where I live, the school budget comes half from state funding, and half from local town taxes (ie the equivalent of property taxes).

We get to vote on the school budget, and if we feel it's too high we can ask them to reduce it. Actually, usually we trust the school to spend its money wisely.

In return we also get a fair say in how the school runs. I really like the system.

Thanks tiggytape it was very much expected and the funeral was lovely, a real tribute to our mum.

lertgush that sounds great.

Thank you for the detailed explanation tiggytape

I think there would be even more outrage against the fines if it was more well known that private school parents don't pay fines.

Private school are same with RAD ballet/music exams no fuss just tell them and authorised. The ballet school has had to resort to a long letter to try and persuade some local state schools that the children are able to attend. I understand there is a special code and the children should be authorised but the fuss and hassle some parents have had.

We get to vote on the school budget, and if we feel it's too high we can ask them to reduce it

How much does it cost to administer the public vote each year?

I can see the appeal of the whole community having a direct say if overall funding is high and all DCs are receiving the education they need (along with other services such as welfare and health being funded effectively) but if money is tight, spending on the administration of a public vote rather than awarding teachers pay increases or providing specialist resources for SEN DCs seems counterintuitive, somehow!

Not all teachers are opposed to holidays out of term time, our head actively fought against the change. They still are as lax as they can be about time off (giving authorised leave, 'forgetting' to report absences)

They used to give us at least two weeks off a year in term time.

As for the effect on the SATs , not that I give a monkeys about these, the school was and is consistently in the top ten percent in the country despite having well above average levels of SEN, English as a second language and children on pupil premium.

Pretty, it was obvious that it was the FPN fines that were being discussed not some other types of fines that could possibly be incurred but in reality never are.

Sorry, jelly, I disagree, it was not obvious at all. People were objecting to the apparent inequality between private and state education, when in reality the two systems are equal but different.

Complaining about private schools HT not being given delegated authority to issue FPNs would be no different to parents of one private school complaining that another private school has different terms and conditions, when they have had a bursary removed for taking holiday in term time when a pupil at another private school hasn't.

Despite the fact that state education is an entitlement, it does come with conditions which have to be compiled with. No different to private education - it comes with conditions. The only difference is that the government sets the conditions for state education.

*complied

I haven't read the full thread, only the first 4 pages, isn't it ironic though how we allow the gouvernment to tell us that taking our kids out of school for educational trips, family events is bad but we are meant to be happy with the amount of time the schools decide not to do any educational activities?

Such as my DS going to abroad for a week for a geography trip in yr 11 (GCSEs year) educational of course, from a geography point of view, but catch up needed in the other subjects I suppose on their return?

Year 6s are going on residential trips in June, how is that different to the parents taking them to Centre Parks for example?

And don't get me started about all the movies they are watching, class parties and lack of academic activities in the last week of school before the summer break. But apparently I am not allowed to take them out that week either for some reason (presumably they'd have to catch up on the movies they haven't seen?)

I have tried to read the full thread. I am against the fines for term time holidays because;

• it takes away the decision making power from well paid head teachers and highly qualified teaching staff who know their pupils better than Mr Gove did.

• it is not applied fairly across the country in any way shape or form. I posted stats about this previously. no fines in cornwall, huge fines in devon and they are next door to each other.
• it does nothing to deal with the real issue of long term and persistent absence, the kids who have one day off a week are still having one day off a week and the stats show this to be the case. overall absence may have fallen but the real problem which is actually a social inclusion issue hasn't been touched.
• the fines are £60 per parent per child so for a family of 4 £260. if you keep on taking holidays then you wont just be fined, you can be taken to court.
• people who signed the petition and lobbied their MP have been pissing in the wind because they just don't care. the man who took the council to court had more money than sense. this is not an avenue open to most people because of the cost.
• with one or two exceptions it takes no account of the real lives of working people. I am in a job where I have to work when schools are shut therefore neither I nor my staff can ever take holidays in school holidays. Lots of people working in teams will find that with 6 weeks in the summer they miss out as businesses cant have everyone off at the same time. No account is taken of this.
• the issue of discretion means some heads are reasonable and others mindful of the ofsted inspectors aren't. it isn't something which is applied fairly.
• our education system is a failure. this is down to years and years of political interference. This is just the latest example.

I believe in education. it is vital. but I also believe in my abilities to parent my child. for those saying that it is a contract with the schools. yes it is but when I signed my children up for state education this wasn't part of the contract. it was imposed on me.

To give you some support OP, I have taken my dc out of school and been fined, and I will do so again one more time I think next year. It's the only thing I can think of that I can be fined for that I wouldn't be ashamed of. The head teacher said to go and have fun, she doesn't approve of the new rules, but her hands are tied now. Several teachers commented to me that they would do it without a second thought if they could.

I won't be doing it once DC are in secondary, but that's my choice as their parent.

the fines are £60 per parent per child so for a family of 4 £260

Huh?