To be scared about unauthorised absence?

[lakeful]

We currently live abroad but will be moving back to England in the next year, have two DCs who are in primary school. I sometimes have to do foreign travel with my job my DH (who is self-employed and very flexible) and DCs have occasionally come with me. I'm talking a period of maybe 4 weeks in total over the past two years. Where we live now, schools do encourage attendance but things are more relaxed than in England and there has not been any problem with me taking them out of school. I have been reading up on the English system and am a bit alarmed! Would I really have to get a Head Teacher's permission to take my own children abroad? Would I really be fined if I did this without their "authorisation"? And is it possible that they authorise children to miss school for reasons such as mine?

I agree with everything HowBadIsThisPlease says and she/he is articulating themselves far better than I could!
As an outsider looking in, it seems utter madness that parents are no longer allowed to make decisions for their children and families as a whole without being derided and made to feel like they're ruining their child's entire education for having the audacity to want to take kids away for a few days in term time.

I am curious too about home education with both parents working full time?

I do think that in many ways primary schools are a million times better than when I went to one (70s and early 80s). My children seem to be busy, engaged, interested, motivated. No one at my infant or junior schools was; I can see how if someone was taken out for a couple of weeks there would be literally nothing to catch up on when you got back, as opposed to the way that children nowadays are being guided at speed thorough a curriculum that has actual content that will be the basis of other stuff later.

Having said all that I still think it is bonkers that the parents are not trusted to take responsibility for this.

I sympathise with the teachers saying they don't have time to set extra work etc but why can't I access something online (or even just an old fashioned book) that says "if EYFS2 pupils miss academic week 5 they will need to learn the names of solid shapes etc" or "if EYFS2 pupils miss academic week 13 they will need to do bugger all as they've just been watching Jungle Book" and then you could make your decisions accordingly?

:) It does seem to require a good support network, whether family or friends. We didn't have either when we started HE, and we used a childminder to cover my (admittedly very part time) hours. Pricey. Unfortunately I am now not well enough to keep my current job anyway, so it's been irrelevant for us lately, but if I am redeployed we will be back with the childminder - although amazingly some of our new HE friends have offered to have the DCs instead . Unless I manage to wrangle some opportunities to work from home instead in which case childcare won't be an issue. Most likely I will be going self employed in a totally unrelated field as that side has taken off lately, and it can work around the DCs anyway, obviously this isn't practical for many jobs though and it would be really challenging if both parents worked FT 9-5 type thing.

A key point is that in England at least, there are no rules regarding what hours you need to keep to in HE - so theoretically it's perfectly possible to work during the day and then do the learning stuff (if you choose a structured approach at all, we are semi structured) during the evening and days off - actually a lot of my DD's most creative work is done just before bed :o. If you use childcare they are not required to educate the child even if it's during school hours (common misconception - a few CMs I approached didn't understand this) - they are childcare just as if the child was younger.

It's not easy, HEing around work, but it can be possible, and I would say to anyone that it's worth looking into if it's something they really wanted, and that certainly two working parents does not automatically prevent HE.

Also a local HE family have just gone on a travelling adventure. Sold the house and everything. Scary but exciting for them! :)

HowbadisthisPlease for most teachers/schools the work is adjusted based on the students understanding, so most places do not have such precise planning.

There is no point moving on to topic B if they need to understand topic A if half of your class are struggling with topic A still.

Its where the skill of the teacher comes in - we aren't just puppets who all teach the same thing, at the same time, in the same way. We react to the students learning. I certainly never plan more than a weeks lessons in detail till I have taught some of the previous topics as I need to know how well the students understanding is.

(also just wanted to say in my first post, I didn't say HEing and working FT - just that both are working IYSWIM. Usually one FT and one PT in the families I know)

Noodle, ok, so you can't say week 8 = topic x, but you can surely say in week 7 what you'll probably do in week 8? If you are constantly giving this information in an ad hoc way that would be very time consuming but if there was a published syllabus you could mark progress through, it would really help parents - not just for this but just so they have a general sense of what is going on. It could be the equivalent of a digital "book" that the parents could leaf through at will but that would display at any given time what page it was "open" at in the classroom

This is in general (not just in education) a bit of a bee in my bonnet - nowadays there are so many ways of distributing information that transparency in everything could be so easy. In my last job I was constantly irritated by the lack of written information or policies or records on anything, so you whenever you had a question the answer was always "Ask Jen" and Jen (in another country) was entirely free to ignore you. It was really clear why Jen didn't really have time to spoon feed individuals with information all the time but not clear why there was no attempt to record or distribute frequently needed information in a different way.

This drives me mad at my daughters' school. there is a whole "system" (not really a system at all) based on hanging around being smirky and picking up scraps of verbal information

OP - this is one reason I'm glad we left the UK. Good luck, whatever you decide.

It's so offensive that private schools don't have this rule.. Yes!
The law says that if a student is enrolled in a school then they have to attend regularly so private school students should be fined too for missing school.

Not that I agree anyone should be fined but if you're going to apply the law at least apply it fairly.

The point you seem to be missing is that perhaps a reasonable person would agree that your children would benefit from a weeks cultural experience at this moment in time - and maybe your HT will agree with this and authorise their leave.

But the policy deals with people who take 4weeks every year, whose children are struggling to keep up whilst they are there, let alone away. People who don't put any educational value on their trips, who expect teachers to give them materials to take or catch the kids up when they get back. Resources that are taken away from the rest of the class when children need to be prepared/caught up due to these unauthorised absenses.

I think the best parallel is the workplace comparison. You get 5 weeks annual leave, but if some other opportunity comes up your boss might agree to give you unpaid leave, but you can't swan off and take extra time off without having had it approved, or there are consequences.

You can take your children wherever/whenever you want to - but there are consequences.

And don't kid yourself that they won't be taking resources from others - when they have to continue worksheets they started last week "I don't have that sheet"; continue piece of writing "I don't know what to do"; write about an incursion they saw last week "I didn't see it" etc etc. Whatever those children were exposed to in that week has escaped your child, and it will be the teacher that has to make sure the activities this week make sense to your child and they have the necessary materials and background to do it. Then consider every child does this and the classroom is never the same bunch of children each week.

Yes xenapants in every way, you are putting me off moving back.

Jolly good. Perhaps the place your child would take up in our excellent free education system will then be available to a set of parents who actually want and appreciate it without feeling the need to take the piss or run it down at every opportunity because it interferes with their little jaunts around the world.

You get 13 weeks a year to take your child on "trips". What makes you so special that you can't do it then?

Why go back to the UK? I am in France and know now that the UK would no longer work for us. School is likely to be the tip of the iceberg. Try it for a few months before you commit.

I have to disagree.

20 sessions missed (10 full days) instigates a visit from the education welfare officer. I know because I have had such meetings.

These are automatic regardless of absence being authorised or not because it is on OVERALL attendance.

My DCs current attendance is 89%. (Take out authorised absences it's 100%) All absences due to medical appts or illness where GP has seen and given a prescription. They do not take this into account.

They visit your home and question you at length as to why your child is off. I actually refused to show evidence the last time citing data protection and not being comfortable sharing my DCs medical records with someone not signed in on their care. I was threatened with a fine and I was absolutely willing take it to court if I had to. They backed down funnily enough.

This is what I have a problem with.

But I still think you should keep your children in class during term time.

If the cost of holidays is so high that's what we should be complaining about too. Not just heavy handed way fines and investigations are handed out.

It's also worth mentioning service families are exempt from this rule and HTs often authorise holidays (here at least) for them. If the rule must be applied it must apply to everyone no exceptions.

Betty, Ds has missed much more than your child but we have never had any questions asked if us or problems as a result. All his are authorised absences and school are kept well informed of the whole situation but he has still dropped into the low 70%s at best for attendance this academic year (2 blocks of absence one of 2 weeks one of 3 and lots of appointments)

sirzy you are very lucky not to have anything negative.

The thing that infuriates me is my DC has specific meetings in school on a Reg basis regarding SEN and the school SENCO has access to those medical records ( the bits that the school have been copied into) so they know of the situation and every appt is followed up with a dated report.

For some reason though they still send our names off to the EWO for investigation even though school attendance records shows medical appt.

I think some of this was brought on by one appt running very late Appt at 10:30 weren't seen until 12:30 out at 1:30 home by 2:15 by the time id have walked to school after feeding DC it would've been pointless going to school. I don't drive and can't afford taxis so rely on buses. We were marked as unauthorised on that even those consult wrote saying emergency care was given in am to another patient and was running late as a result.

I'm between a rock and a hard place because our school seems to be only one doing this and I can't move due to SEN and would be a yrs wait here.

betty service families tend to get no fines because if the parent has leave, that is the only family time they have. There's no opportunity to go away in a school holiday. I think if you could prove you needed time out for a certain event that was linked to a certain time, you would be considered for authorised leave in the same way. So it is applied the same for everyone.

I don't agree with fines however.

Fines are another government way of seeing schools against parents. This government wants to break schools I feel.

I'm in England. I think it's a disgraceful rule. Did anyone read the guidance link posted? Not just about holidays, but bereavement - absence should only be granted for the funeral itself, plus travelling time. Most work places are more compassionate than that! Lose your parent or sibling and you should attend school every day except the day of the funeral itself.

I'm sorry absences are hard on other children and parents. But I wish I didn't live in England under this system.

There's no flexibility, no common sense.

Thankfully, we now have a school with a head teacher who is hugely understanding, and will authorise leave as much as she possibly can, understanding that education happens outside the classroom as well as inside.

Does flexi schooling still exist as a concept? Whereby children attend part time and are home educated for the remainder? If so, I wonder if that might be an option for you, op?

I do think the kind of trips you are describing (the kind my parents took us on too) are hugely educational, and far more beneficial than another week in school.

Setting not seeing

Yes I was pretty appalled by that bit, that absence would only be granted for the funeral. That is pretty shocking.
In real life I can imagine that if I had a 14 year old who was knocked for six, by, say (shudder to think of it) the death of her father (in which case I wouldn't be rushing back to work myself to be honest) - I can't imagine kicking her out the door to school the day after we found out (with the funeral not yet booked and maybe in a week's time, "so you're fine to go to school today! No reason to miss anything!") - and in that case I would probably find myself taking her to the dr and getting a medical note. This may be wrong as grief is not an illness and I suppose it is abusing the system, taken literally. But I just wouldn't cooperate with a system that expected her to go to school in that case.

Actually I probably wouldn't, I probably just wouldn't send her in and then deal with whatever happened.

Even if it were "only" an aunt or a grandparent it seems really harsh.

We're in Ireland so don't have these rules thankfully.

If I did take my child out for a week every year to go on holidays and made sure the child did work to catch up on what was missed in school - then I doubt my child would turn out that different at 18 years than if he had been in the UK system. He would probably turn out much the same.

Surely the focus should be on parents who don't care about their children's education - the ones who regularly let them miss school without a valid reason and who don't care about them catching up.

"Fines are another government way of setting schools against parents. This government wants to break schools I feel."

I agree with this. This is such a heavy handed way of approaching decent responsible adults that it is bound to corrode the sense of partnership that they would have at best.

In cases where parents don't care and book holidays willy nilly, the partnership is already not working, but aren't they a minority? and what do you do to restore partnership?

It's the worst management style ever - approach someone who is respsonsible for something, who isn't doing it exactly as you would like, and remove responsibility from them without discussion, while still expecting them to do most of the work on the project. You can expect that project to fail

If the school is not full you can always deregister them before you go and reregister them on your return

It is all about income generation