To be scared about unauthorised absence?

[lakeful]

We currently live abroad but will be moving back to England in the next year, have two DCs who are in primary school. I sometimes have to do foreign travel with my job my DH (who is self-employed and very flexible) and DCs have occasionally come with me. I'm talking a period of maybe 4 weeks in total over the past two years. Where we live now, schools do encourage attendance but things are more relaxed than in England and there has not been any problem with me taking them out of school. I have been reading up on the English system and am a bit alarmed! Would I really have to get a Head Teacher's permission to take my own children abroad? Would I really be fined if I did this without their "authorisation"? And is it possible that they authorise children to miss school for reasons such as mine?

it's the childrens responsibility to catch up missed lessons, eg copy from a classmate
This works for secondary and always has, but is not really possible in primary.

I teach in a college, not a school, but when a student is absent - particularly if they miss assessments - it really causes extra work. I teach 24 hours a week, which gives me 11 work hours "free" for prep and marking, and having to spend a couple of those hours doing one-to-one support for someone who's been off on holiday is a massive pain. Those hours have to be put in at the weekend, on top of the other hours I work at the weekend. We don't fine anyone, and supporting students is part of my job, but it does grate knowing I'm working all day Sunday because students have been off on their holibobs.

"less likely to question authority (and for some reason this is particuarly true on MN - I am not sure why this is)"

NickiFury - I have often this about mumsnet much more often recently - I think there is a sort of innate conservatism these days on mn, and a kind of demonstrative righteous indignation takes hold where groups of posters are all trying to out-do each other in their simplistic takes on demonstrating being Responsible and Decent (where actually they're just being judgmental and mindlessly obedient)

I do remember (perhaps with nostalgic wishful thinking) that there used to be a bit more of a renegade, eccentric, critical thinking faction on mumsnet but nowadays it leans much more towards a sort of 3-bed semi, Express-reading mindset, and a lot of people tutting and grumping about any neighbours who plant the wrong sort of shrubs.

Also can I debunk the myth that prior to the fines/unauthorised absence being tightened up (the law hasn't changed) schools were able to authorise up to 10 days per year.

Sadly lots of parents took this as 'we are allowed an additional two weeks holdiay' as a right, which did have a huge knock on effect to students.

In my experience (only 7 years in a nice middle class white area school) it does tend to be the middle to lower ability students who have the term time holidays on a regular basis.

I don;t agree/disagree with the policy but I do find it frustrating when parents think I should give up more and more of my time to catch students up with work missed - normally requests for after school or lunchtime sessions.

JinRamen my DC are 4 and 6. I just don't think taking on the home education role fully would be my DH's thing! And I basically work full-time so for now, it just wouldn't be possible. I'm a bit worried about moving back though and having to adjust to all of this.

You sound rather judgemental yourself!

OP - why can't you use the 13 weeks of holiday instead?

pizzas that's perfectly true, but at the same time, catching up is probably a bit less critical in Y3 than in Y11 ;)

Howbadisthis I just lol about the shrubs!

I agree with another poster who pointed out that this is so one-sided - children miss loads of lessons when the teachers decide that it's ok to do so. At my children's primary school, especially at Christmas, they sometimes literally have no teaching for the whole last week. I don't mind this per se, because I think the teachers know what they are doing; the children are little, have worked hard, are completely shattered; those short winter days really suck the energy out of them and they probably should be just cocooning, getting ready for Christmas and having fun with their friends.

BUT I do mind that I don't get to decide that they can have fun with ME. It would be so lovely if we could afford to just fly off somewhere and have a lovely week altogether, say one year in 10. See some different places, hear different languages, get rested and refreshed, and - see above - actually miss NO formal education. But this is apparently not my decision to make - the teachers can choose not to teach them but I can't choose to take them out of a class where they're just watching DVDs.

Yes yes 13 weeks. I often have to work in those particular weeks. Oddly enough, international workplaces organising charity work, development work, conferences, etc just do not arrange their activities to fit the UK school holidays! The OP likely cannot determine when these opportunities will take place. Many, many families don't have time off together in the school holidays! Never mind being able to arrange an experience like this.

Underthegreenwood thanks for the link, that's very interesting!

I looked at this and made sure I covered each of the points when notifying an exceptional absence and requesting its authorisation

www.naht.org.uk/welcome/news-and-media/key-topics/parents-and-pupils/naht-issues-new-guidance-on-authorised-absence/

I can't take credit for that, it was misti that said it originally but I thought it was spot on. I agree entirely with your post too.

TyneTeas, were you requesting exceptional absence for your child and did you get given permission? do you mind me asking what the justification was?

I travel for work too sometimes, there are set dates that do not correspond with school holidays and I would love to take my dcs for a week. I am pretty sure I will at some point but I'm wondering how to go about it.

Technically it would be possible to go any time as the city is always going to be there so I can't argue that we can't go in the holidays. I'm wondering what would happen if I made a case for tying it in with a work trip

thanks Nicki!

I'm in Wales and the LEA brought in the fines this year - a parent was spitting feathers outside school yesterday as she had asked for a holiday form and was told she would be fined £120.
It's a bit confusing, no one is quite sure which rules are being applied but as a small school having two children off for a week could bring the overall attendance below the required minimum and we've an Estyn inspection due....

OP... Please understand that the children, teachers and school have targets to meet, and if they miss lessons for however long, it becomes more and more difficult to catch up...they will end up with gaps in their learning, and this becomes a big problem for the school, particularly if Ofsted visit. The school has to justify itself to Ofsted for the reason that some children aren't making the required progress, or low attendance. If you take them out of school it becomes the school's problem.
Whilst I don't disagree that taking children abroad to unusual places is a learning opportunity, you will be doing them no favours within the "system" .
Schools, and their staff, are under enormous pressure to prove that the children are reaching the required levels, and every missed session means a gap that has to be filled, somehow.
It is the way it is, until the Government changes its stance.

Then you have the situation where if your child vomits, even once, they aren't supposed to go to school for 48hours. So you take time off work to stay with them, realise they are completely well, so rather than sit in the house you take your completely well child off somewhere, as they will be bouncing off the walls otherwise, and now you have taken annual leave you may as well have some fun and some fresh air. the next thing is people have seen a picture of your child on a swing or something on Facebook and are gossiping about you. It wasn't my rule! I never said my child was ill I just said they had vomited - 12 hours ago. It was the school who said she couldn't go in for another day and a half! It would have been far easier for me to break the rule, send her in, and go to work.

As a home educating parent (only for the last year, DCs were in school before that) I totally agree that your DCs must benefit hugely from their travels with you. It really sounds like a great opportunity.

But I do think that if you sign up for a school you have to follow its rules. A shame but I don't think it's fair to try and have the best of both worlds IYSWIM. Also FWIW lots of families I know do home ed around both parents working.

Also I do know lots of families who just take the hit of the fines - those going on mega expensive holidays like Universal/Disney etc are making massive savings so the £120 fine or whatever is really a very small dent in that, so fuck it, they go anyway, as they can. Whereas if you're taking a cheap holiday it wouldn't really be worth it if you get fined - for example our recent trip was a few days at a Haven place, we saved £160 (£100 instead of £260) by going in term time (since we can now) which meant we could afford to go, but if the DCs had been in school, we would've lost that saving - actually if it's per parent per child it would've cost more than going in the holidays anyway I guess?

Paying the £60 fine is cheaper than private school!!

HowBad the reason we were requesting absence was not like any of the examples being discussed here - and would likely be very outing as I have not shut up about it IRL : )

Just thought the link might be useful for people to look through the points for consideration if trying to make a case.

I have heard about someone informing the school that they are considering home schooling their DCs and that they will be educated off-site for a trial period that uncoincidentally is the period of their trip away, and providing the school with a list of topics that uncoincidentally link to destination with reference to curriculum that will be covered for information.... (unlikely to work more than once though!)

Cagliostro I take your point about one system or another. This is possibly for another thread but just wondering how parents would home educate and both work, can you give an example of how this would be possible? I'm genuinely interested.

I understand where you are coming from op. When I was at school in the 80s the "just don't take the piss and it'll be authorised" system was in effect, at least in my primary school. I was taken out for the occasional week, as were most people. It didn't harm our overall education. I think there is a ridiculous emphasis on attendance over everything else and I am surprised to see so many on this thread supporting the fines. I have seen so many posts on here against them and don't know anyone irl who likes the way the education system has put this huge emphasis on attendance.

Lakeful I fully sympathise with you and also think our education system is utter madness. Like Dangermouth said, we are in a nanny state. It worries me deeply that most people seem quite happy to follow these ridiculous rules like sheep, not thinking for a minute about the bigger picture. With all the pressure to stick our children in childcare at an ever earlier age, the draconian attendance rules in school, the longer school hours now being touted, does no one realise that we're all being conditioned to act like well-behaved worker bees from virtually the moment we can walk?! What, parents know best about their children?! Don't be silly, hand them over to the state when they're two yrs old, they'll start brainwashing them early to follow rules without questioning them. See, it's already worked on most of the people commenting on here - they don't even question whether it seems odd that a parent can't take their own 6 yr old out for an educational day/s out without risking being fined!!

Sorry, rant over, I dispair at this country.

It sounds like they will be getting a wonderful life-enriching experience with their parents, how fantastic. But yes, you may need to think about private education if you want to continue to feel like you're still their parent once you come to England. Either that or Home Educate for total freedom.

I'm sorry you've got lots of stick on here, it has shocked and saddened me that so few of us seem to realise just how much of our freedom Is being gradually taken away.