To ask what people did before formula?

[Annabelleinapickle]

There's always a BF/FF debate but genuinely what did we do before formula existed? It worked fine then, people produced milk? Personally I think it's all the devices, unhealthy crap invented that has made our bodies less able.

There's also what is called ecological fallacy.
Even if on average darker skin was tougher and lighter skin more sensitive to damage/pain/scarring it says very little about what happens at the individual level. And it should never be used for individual advice.

I agree Lweji. It leads to a very nasty taste in my mouth... the thought of women being less sympathetic to each other because of their skin colour.

Suggesting that speculation about whether a group whose pain reactors are known to differ from other people is the same thing as racism, systematic oppression that ruins black and brown lives, leaves a pretty nasty taste in mine. As a redhead, I'd like to make it very, very clear that ReallyTired is not speaking in my ginger name. This is true even if the redhead theory is bollocks.

Exactly HarlotBronte, you can always rely on mn for an overreaction.

It's preconceived ideas that can be extremely damaging to breastfeeding.

It can work in too ways: a fair skinned woman being told she will find breastfeeding harder, becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

A darker skinned woman not getting the help she needs because of the assumption she will find it easier.

None of this is helpful. We need to look at the individual in every case.

'two' not 'too'.

I wouldn't even be so kind as to call it an overreaction actually findingmyfeet.

"Suggesting that speculation about whether a group whose pain reactors are known to differ from other people is the same thing as racism, systematic oppression that ruins black and brown lives, leaves a pretty nasty taste in mine."

Most racism is indirect and many people do not realise that their comments have racist overtones/ implications. They don't think through the consequence of their baseless speculation.

At lot of racism is based sheer speculation. For example it used to be generally accepted that black people were less intelligent than white people. Or maybe that black people were less evolved and more like monkeys. Sadly some people start to believe such crap if its repeated often enough. Some frighteningly intelligent have presented their speculation as if it was evidence.

www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

What evidence do you have that red heads are particularly sensitive pain or have particularly delicate skin? (Other than being at risk of sunburn.) Plenty of people of ethnic backgrounds have sensitive skin. Ezcema clinics are full of people of all colours. I feel that such speculation without incredibly strong evidence is dangerous and fails to combat the real reasons that women struggle with breastfeeding.

I don't think its racist as such but there is a particular sensitivity about it.

There are genetic differences between different groups that affect lots of aspects of our health.

The issue is where value is attached to that difference. As in one group is 'better' than another rather than one group 'is more susceptible to this particular problem because of this evidence basis reason'.

The difference is subtle and controversial and should be handled with care.

Personally I think that speculating based on midwives tales alone and anecdotes off MN, is possibly not handling with care and is potentially dangerous.

Its quite a leap to go from asking what makes British women particularly unique genetically compared to other seemingly similar groups to singling out a particular thing in this way.

What you need to find to start talking about this as a possible idea is a correlation of rate feeding rates to the population of red hair / fair skin gene carriers. If this is the case you would expect a significantly lower breastfeeding rate in places where there is a higher proportion of red hair gene carriers.

There has been good research into mapping red hair genetics.

So is there a correlation?

map of red hair

It is hard to calculate the exact percentage of the population having red hair as it depends on how wide a definition one adopts. For example, should men with just partial red beards, but no red hair on the top of their heads be included or not ? Should strawberry blond be counted as red, blond, or both ? Regardless of the definition, the frequency of red hair is highest in Ireland (10 to 30%) and Scotland (10 to 25%), followed by Wales (10 to 15%), Cornwall and western England, Brittany, the Franco-Belgian border, then western Switzerland, Jutland and southwest Norway. The southern and eastern boundaries, beyond which red hair only occurs in less than 1% of the population, are northern Spain, central Italy, Austria, western Bohemia, western Poland, Baltic countries and Finland.

Overall, the distribution of red hair matches remarkably well the ancient Celtic and Germanic worlds. It is undeniable too that the highest frequencies are always observed in Celtic areas, especially in those that remained Celtic-speaking to this day or until recently. The question that inevitably comes to many people's minds is: did red hair originate with the Celtic or the Germanic people ?

Southwest Norway may well be the clue to the origin of red hair. It has been discovered recently, thanks to genetic genealogy, that the higher incidence of both dark hair and red hair (as opposed to blond) in southwest Norway coincided with a higher percentage of the paternal lineage known as haplogroup R1b-L21, including its subclade R1b-M222, typical of northwestern Ireland and Scotland (the so-called lineage of Niall of the Nine Hostages). It is now almost certain that native Irish and Scottish Celts were taken (probably as slaves) to southwest Norway by the Vikings, and that they increased the frequency of red hair there.

Based on that evidence, there is not a correlation that I can see...

What evidence do you have that red heads are particularly sensitive pain or have particularly delicate skin? (Other than being at risk of sunburn.) Plenty of people of ethnic backgrounds have sensitive skin. Ezcema clinics are full of people of all colours. I feel that such speculation without incredibly strong evidence is dangerous and fails to combat the real reasons that women struggle with breastfeeding.

Have a look at wikipedia's Red Hair entry.

There is a section about studies that have looked at pain tolerance and injury (with references as to source at the bottom of the page). How high in quality those studies are I don't know.

So it does appear correct to say there are certain differences.

But as I have just pointed out there does not appear to be a correlation between breastfeeding rates and distribution of red heads anyway.

Fuck me, did you really just cite theories about black people being less intelligent in service of your argument? When you've trivialised the structural oppression of black and brown people by claiming that discussing something that might or might not affect a group of white people is racist?! I suppose one has to admire your chutzpah, if nothing else. But you don't seem to get this: racism is a system that shits on people who aren't white from a great height. It denies them access to resources, to power, it imprisons them at higher rates than white people, it stops them from being seen as fully human. When you use the term racism for things that are manifestly not this, you trivialise what actual racism is and what it does.

As for redheads, there's been research on this. Most of it seems to require subscription unfortunately, but there's one paper and one news article here if you really can't manage to do your own googling:

sciencenordic.com/redheads-feel-different-kind-pain

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692342/

Having said that, as far as I can tell there are some types of pain and physical sensation that redheads are less sensitive to, not more. In theory I suppose there's no reason why that couldn't make us as a group less susceptible to breastfeeding pain, not more. But I want to be clear here, I don't know whether the theory is true and don't actually care. The reason I posted was to tell you to stop invoking racism for things that aren't racist, and make it very clear as a redhead that you don't speak for me.

Also if red hair was influential, rates of red hair in the population have stayed fairly consistent during the last century. If anything there has been a decrease in the percentage of red heads in the population of the uk due to more immigration from other places.

You would therefore expect to see, in theory at least, a consistent level of breast feeding rates or in fact a rise in them. Not a downward curve.

Those impressions may well be based on prejudice because very white skin looks so fragile. It doesn't mean that it actually is.

Well mine is. And my nipples really suffered with BFing because of it.

There's been research into bruising from taking blood and how that can be predicted from skin colour - I've had phlebotomists and dentists tell me they are advised to use more local anaesthetic on people with classic red hair/pale skin.

But such messages need to be used with caution, to make sure anyone else reporting pain is taken seriously - and if all healthcare staff always took all pain seriously, then the likelihood of pain for one group wouldn't matter.

I think breastfeeding promotion would do a lot better if they said "One third of mothers find breastfeeding easy. You might be one of them! Another third find it is straightforward after the first couple weeks and with a bit of help, so worth trying! Most of the rest could breastfeed with enough support - this is what support is available, so why not give it a go and see what happens?"
And feature two women like me and SIL - she was 20 and kept having HCPs assume she wasn't breastfeeding, but in fact did for over a year and gave me support by saying things like "I wish I could help you, but I just stuck my breast in his mouth and it just worked - it's not like you aren't trying way harder than me!" Meanwhile I sufferedloads, finally got thrush treasted and from 8 weeks it got easier, so I kept going for a year to make sure it ended up cheaper than formula! And from 6 months it was a doddle.

It's preconceived ideas that can be extremely damaging to breastfeeding.

It can work in too ways: a fair skinned woman being told she will find breastfeeding harder, becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

A darker skinned woman not getting the help she needs because of the assumption she will find it easier.

None of this is helpful. We need to look at the individual in every case.

Now that I agree with.

"Well mine is. confused And my nipples really suffered with BFing because of it."

One anedote is not research. Black people get cracked nipples as well.

I don't think that sucessful breastfeeding is about trying hard so much as a combination of factors including a bit of luck. Tongue tie, lack of family support, poor advice from health professionals and a sleepy/ sick baby can all sabortage breastfeeding.

I had cracked nipples with both my children. I have almost black hair and I am probably a carrier of the ginger gene. I believe that my cracked nipples happened because I did not know how to support the baby's head. A lot of midwives encourage a cradlehold which is great for a slightly older baby, but does not offer support for a newborn's head. As a new mother I felt a bit bamboozled by all the different ways you can hold a baby. It felt like some kind of yoga. I found it confusing when some midwives told me to use the cradle hold and other told me to use the cross cradlehold. There needs to be consistancy of teaching when learning a new skill.

Breast crawl/ biological nuturing is a good way to feed in the early days. Since the baby is lying on his tummy he does not need so much head support.

www.breastcrawl.org/

Its a great way of giving your baby tummy time as well and they quickly build up the strength so that you can breastfeed comfortably with the cradle hold.

One anedote is not research. Black people get cracked nipples as well.

I never suggested it was and I'm sure they do. My point was merely that I have very thin skin, especially on my nipples, and that they suffered for that. I happen to be white and pale, that may or may not be relevant but I have two very close friends who are technically of white ethnicity but they are very olive looking (some southern European/Mediterranean heritage there) and their skin does have a more robust and sort of 'thicker' look to it than mine.

I would politely suggest that instead of hair colour it may be more productive to look at skin structure.

For example, there are a multitude of conditions that effect connective tissue and create less strong skin and tissue. Some conditions mean a host of other more serious symptoms but there are thought to be a significant proportion of the population who have much milder symptoms which go mostly unnoticed.

Oh and one of the signs is thinner and more translucent skin, which of course is more visible the lighter colour the skin... Not a skin colour cause and effect thing :)

I believe that my cracked nipples happened because I did not know how to support the baby's head. A lot of midwives encourage a cradlehold which is great for a slightly older baby, but does not offer support for a newborn's head. As a new mother I felt a bit bamboozled by all the different ways you can hold a baby. It felt like some kind of yoga. I found it confusing when some midwives told me to use the cradle hold and other told me to use the cross cradlehold. There needs to be consistancy of teaching when learning a new skill.

And that paragraph just sums up why so many women do seem to struggle. This is the thing that is supposed to be one of the most natural things in the world, that should come easily and instinctively to us, that really shouldn't hurt (apparently) unless we do it all wrong, and yet it seems that doing it 'right' doesn't actually come naturally at all to lots of us and it's accepted that if often requires epic amounts of instruction before it's efficient or even tolerable.

"doesn't actually come naturally at all to lots of us and it's accepted that if often requires epic amounts of instruction before it's efficient or even tolerable."

Humans who grow up in a breastfeeding culture with lots of babies learn to breastfeed by watching mum, their aunties, cousins or sisters breastfeeding. In the UK most of us don't have that kind of support. We have smaller families and don't live in such close proximity as the past. Motherhood is something experienced in isolation for many women.

I agree in relation to how to hold the baby. I remember well being told to cross cradle and how to get the baby to latch on from pre-natal classes. I also had a couple of books on it.

When I started to breastfeed, I kept those tips at the forefront of my mind.
Having said that, ds only fed initially from one breast. He refused the other for a few days. I can't imagine if he had refused both, or if I had tried the one he refused first. I'm sure I'd have got stressed and might have found it more difficult to preservere with breastfeeding.

In the UK most of us don't have that kind of support. We have smaller families and don't live in such close proximity as the past. Motherhood is something experienced in isolation for many women but that applies to many other (western) culture as well.

A lady was very ill after giving birth on my Grandma's street. My Grandma had recently given birth and had enough milk for both babies so expressed, presumably by hand, for the other one.

This has been an interesting thread. It does give the lie to the idea that women all used to exclusively breastfeed because 'formula didn't exist' .
My ex husband (aged 58) was fed on silver top milk from 7 days old (he's absolutely fine). His nephews and nieces , aged in their 30's and 40's were all fed on carnation milk.
I was breastfed for a few weeks then given formula, and probably baby rice/farex from a few weeks old, as was very common then.

I saw my grandmother today and was asking her about the formula she fed my dad and uncle. She was pretty offended when I suggested she might have used carnation milk etc.

Apparently it was SMA and NHS Dried for my uncle (he's about 55), Cow and Gate for my dad (52).